Thank you so much. Why don't we start the panel first by introducing yourselves. So one by one, we can start with you.
I'm Daryl Go. I'm product lead for Ping one. Oh yeah, sorry. Hello, I'm Daryl Go. I'm product lead for Ping one Neo and work for Ping Identity.
Hi, I'm Master Johnson, founder and CEO of Nuggets. Nuggets is a verified self-sovereign, decentralized identity specializing in identity, payment and compliance.
Hi, I'm Katrina Dow, the founder and CEO of Miko, and we build components to enable things like decentralized identity verified credentials or customers to bring data from other parts of their life into a single API and then plug that into the organizations they trust.
Hi, I'm Nick Shaw. I'm Chief Identity strategist at the Open Identity Exchange and we are a members organization with the mission that we can all have a reusable digital ID that can be in a wallet and we can use that anywhere we go all over the globe, but it is trusted anywhere we go all over the globe.
Hi, my name's Alistair Trahan. I'm co-founder of Brewco Identity. We're a boutique consultancy working in identity, working with vendors, banks, financial services, organizations and governments around the world.
Hello, Daniel Goldey. I am founder of the Open World Foundation.
Mark Hain here representing the Open ID Foundation but also a consultant for hire sometimes. And my role today is going to be making sure that this lot give each other a fair crack at the web. So the, the panel, just as a quick reminder is wallets as the new class of super apps relating to financial services and beyond. And what we were thinking we would do to open this would be to just expand out to the widest lens We can, we can think of here about the potential scope of these super wallet apps. So who would like to start by checking some of the wider use possible use cases into the ring?
Who here was at the open wallet deep dive. So I apologize to you. I'm going to bore you to death. I'll try to make this quick. So, you know, we believe that wallets are incredibly important because as Joran said, you know, a lot of people in the industry look at wallets through a specific lens. If you working on tokenizing credit cards and debit cards and you hear the word wallet, you say, yeah, that's, that's exactly what I need for my tokenized credit card. Other people work on driver's licenses or government IDs or they may work on car keys or room keys or healthcare credentials or Fido pass keys and say, Hey, you know, wallets might be a really good place for phyto pass keys. So for all these reasons we believe that wallets are going to become as essential as web browsers. You know, obviously in a very different field. But when you think about it, you use the wallet in important situations when you want to prove who you are, when you want to pay for something, when you want to sign a document, when you want to show that you're healthy or that you have the right to board a flight.
I'd like to follow off the back of that belief. I also believe in the long term that digital identity is gonna be the gateway to the internet. And these open wallet initiatives are assisting in that gateway to do it. At the moment we we've, we've moved from laptops and then we had devices and we're all about who's on the device, who's bound behind the device. In future your identity will travel with you, well not even in future now. Right now you are able to do that move from device to device and platform to platform and take that digital identity with you.
So for what,
The, the, the question was what's the scope of this? What are we gonna be doing
For these folks? Well as particularly we specialize in payment, which is a core one. We believe that identity at the end of the day on its own is a bit of an island, but as soon as you bring it towards functionality like payment, you can go to health and across all the different realms there's massive potential. I mean at the end of the day if I, if you go into my Amazon account and you find out I'll buy socks, you're not very interested, but if you take my payment details I get really upset at that point. So it's imperative for we tie that identity to a functionality of those areas versus sectors we can work with.
Sure. And some of the use cases we're seeing at Ping related to financial services especially one is in the US check cashing fraud actually went up by 84% last year. So fraud prevention through digital wallets is very powerful potential even for non-customers. So people that come in and cash their payroll check every two weeks, they don't have a bank account there but it's written on that bank, they can now proof themselves once even with the bank app and now next time they come back they're gonna get a V I P experience and be treated very decently and maybe even upsell them to do some things with the bank at that point. So that's one example we're working on right now with one of the large banks in the us.
I think we're going to do a lot of amazing things. I think we'll be able to issue credentials. I think we'll be able to prove providence of things that may assist a financial transaction or assess the confidence maybe in an asset transfer In the context of financial services, I think we're gonna be able to revoke and cut off a fraudster very, very quickly. We're gonna be able to prove different things about our lives and compose them based on a flexible use case. So it may be something about our physical self, it may be something about an asset we own. It may be something about the way we're transferring funds. I think we'll be able to pay, obviously I think we'll be able to offset carbon and choose to pay through a combination of things, which could be loyalty points, it could be fiat currency, it could be offsetting something. So I think we'll have this composability to be able to do a whole range of transactions, financial transactions by wrapping either proofs or credentials around to minimize like one tap, one touch but satisfy many requirements simultaneously.
Alistair, I'm gonna just be a little more specific in your case Johann, that is cuz we've got two Alistair's hopefully in the government context. What do you think the government stakeholders are thinking of in terms of problems that need solved with the use of these super apps?
I think probably, certainly in the UK and, and maybe it's representative of number of governments around the world there, they've been challenged to think about how their legislation and regulation and governance needs to change to take into account the innovation that's taking place in digital identity and digital wallet space. So one of the challenges that they have is keeping up to speed with everything that's going on and trying to adapt and change things and and knit together, given the use cases we're just talking about and the relationship between financial services and other areas of the economy. There's silos traditionally of legislation and governments and governments and standards and that needs to be kind of broken down a little bit and the dependencies need between them need to be worked on. I think that's a real challenge for many governments around the world.
So kind of a, a more citizen focused approach to identity there then?
I think so, and also it's, it's the kind of consumer, citizen facing use cases, but it's understanding the employee and the business use cases as well in financial services as as an example. Okay. So I think the use of digital identity, the use of wallets and how that can transform many parts of financial institution. Yeah, I think that's the challenge that governments are looking at.
Okay. Nick, you've got the, the industry body kind of been speaking to everybody sort of perspective here.
Yeah and I was gonna pick up on what was saying around and your question around government. So about what, what is this super app gonna do in a financial services context? The super wallets Central bank digital currencies. So what we're seeing is, you know, as they come come out a premise of them is they are not anonymous. You know, you're not gonna be able to keep your cash secret, they're gonna have to be linked to a digital identity. There's a consultation out in the UK about this at the moment, linking it into the new digital identity trust framework. So that means that in my super wallet with all my payment instruments in it, you know the, the experience I get today when I go into a supermarket and there's a screen that says how do you wanna pay contactless card? So there's always different methods that transfers to my wallet.
So there isn't a screen there, there's a screen here or in or here in my vision it was my wallet moves into a Star Trek like ether where I selected the payment method and one of those would be my cash or my cars, all the things, all the payment instruments I've collected together that are relevant to me that I can then make my choice and that that interaction for me is seamless and even more seamless than it is today. And people keep talking about are NASCAR screens of choice going to disappear? I was in Singapore and went into McDonald's and got the, the, the old fashioned NASCAR of do you want Visa, MasterCard, jcb and you had to choose your payment. I hadn't seen that anywhere for years, but I still knew what it meant so I was able to select the right payment. So I I, I think they're gonna be around for a long time, but it will transfer to me making the choice of my payment instrument that's filtered down to which ones are available in the context that I'm trying to pay. So some people may not accept cash in terms of cbdc, you know, do I want it as a business, do I wanna hold C DPC cash? I might not wish to do that. So that's a big question for me around cbdc Cash, who, who wants to trade in it? That's a separate question. So
We've, we've actually had some experience dealing with CBDC directly and what's actually interesting or although they say there there's a level of anonymity but not in the entirety. They have massively driven towards the privacy, especially in certain sectors. We've seen it go across the globe where they're actually using it to track and trace and correlate activities. But what we're generally seeing over in Europe and in the west is that people are putting privacy first and the drive for that is very important. But down to your point in terms of the multi rail payments are available, you'll be able to go in there and if you paid with CBDC the week before, it'll automatically use that again because it's stored in your identity as a verifiable credential on the method you use and how you do. So that's how it builds the super wallet. It is actually builds over time into more and more components against your identity and the verifiable credentials that are stored with it. And even in fact you can have verifiable receipts from those transactions that you can then prove back as a credit proof or a ability to get a loan because you can demonstrate I've had ten one thousand pound transactions and here's a cryptographic proof of it from this year as well. So that potential of building those assets, those digital assets within wallet is massive and in then it can move around with you.
So that's all great. But one thing I was just reflecting on here is you guys were all talking, I didn't hear anybody talking particularly about cross border use cases. Is there anything there cross border that you think will be unique or special or or super
Which border? And I think that's the, I mean certainly within Europe the answer and well the desire is amongst the member states to reduce as much of that cross border friction as possible. So whether that's with payments or signature or any kind of proofs, however this is something I'm working through right now as an Australian that resides in Europe with an identity card, that country does not have a great view of us Australians unfortunately. And it's becoming increasingly difficult even as a resident even with a resident card because of my place of birth and my ultimate residence. So I think one of the difficulties, it's gonna be a big advantage for some countries that are able to easily interoperate across borders together and then in other parts of the world that friction is gonna be more difficult but it's all based on regulation and trust and so whoever agrees to this kind, these interoperable standards and interoperable regulations, yeah that's where there'll be a massive advantage. Yeah and I hope somebody thinks better of the Australians. That's all I can say.
I quite like Australians generally I think Dar with your North American perspective. Well,
And I, I think what we're gonna see now, banks know a lot about people more than governments. In some countries banks have a better idea of who you are and they're more likely to catch fraud and know that you're doing bad things than even the government. So the power of the banking system can be really leveraged heavily there. The cross border banking, the issue is proofing and vetting of the identity and what what we're already seeing even is like harmonization of this, right? Like we're starting to see proofing kind of normalize around the globe in many areas. And so I would predict as that proofing levels and mechanisms and standards with ISO included as that harmonizes out that will help us enable this cross-border banking. And at that point the banks can even just agree amongst themselves and be able to honor each other's verifiable credentials to do certain transactions. There will be some transaction types, maybe you have to do additional levels of proofing. Sure.
I think that could lay the way for then there to be some regulatory interoperability and risk tolerance. So for these types of transactions we are happy to have that risk for those type of transactions. We can't map the regs sufficiently. Yeah,
I think when it comes to crossing borders we should remember that we have a lot to lose. You know, think about it. All of you have a passport, right? Where can you go with this passport? Well where can you not go with this passport? You can go pretty much anywhere you want. You know, some countries for some with some countries you may need a visa, but your passport will work everywhere because it's essentially a piece of paper and people will be able to look at it and it works everywhere you want to go. It works in countries that are friendly to your own country, but it also works if you want to go to a country that may not be as friendly or even at war with your own country. So I think, you know, I very much hope that this is going to be super and I think everyone on this panel shares that hope.
Probably everyone here in the audience shares the hope, but I think it's important to remember that we have everything to lose. You know, even the, the architecture reference framework for instance leaves a lot to interpretation and there are possibilities that different countries within Europe are going to interpret those rules differently. And we end up in a world where our digital credentials are not as universal as our paper based or analog credentials. And I think this is why everyone here, you know, on stage, you and the audience, everyone in this conference, we have to work to make that happen.
So we, we have a question then actually, which actually fits in kind of with the, the track we were thinking of going on. So I think it's coming in from online, what are the benefits to the real average human? You know, we're been sp speaking here according to this question, mainly with a B2B lens. What about the end user? And, and actually we had a, a question that we were moving towards here, which is, is sounding super but super for who?
Well I believe there's a massive benefits in terms of economic benefits for reductions in fraud, false positives on the business side and if the businesses are getting those returns, I if you look at some of the businesses that we've spoken to, some have been anything from 90% on false positives to 30% on false positive. And these are very large brands. If you just got a small reduction on that, the value of having identity and decentralized identity associated to that is massive. So it is very important to be able to bring that. But on the user side, because people are bringing in ownership and control principles with self-sovereign identity, decentralized identity, they then get ownership of control over their identity elements and then they can interact and then both parties are benefiting. So it's almost, and I hate to say a word Trojan horse cause everyone relates to it as a a virus, but it's almost a way of getting more privacy to into the businesses because the businesses getting better economic benefits from it.
It definitely reduces the vulnerabilities for individuals. If you look at something really simple like employee onboarding and receiving checks and you know, they may be background checks at the moment it's typical that you copy those in some way. You put them into an email, you put in the email, you know, my employment tech and then all of a sudden, you know, it's gone, it's out in the ether. And so I agree with everything in terms of there are, there are business efficiencies, but there are also built in advances around privacy and security and, and the idea of, of control and transparency, but also efficiency for an individual, you know, a swipe to share something that is a credential is significantly easier than the whole process of getting all those documents from the various authorities, copying them, putting them into an email, following that up. So the, so just that whole efficiency flow is is benefits both sides, all parties. Yeah. Yeah,
Pastor, I was just thinking with a lot of the clients that we work with in financial services, the kind of the benefits of the users is still being worked out and the benefits to the organization's being worked through as well. So I think that to a certain extent it's quite difficult to answer that question because the value of use, digital identity, digital wallets is just being discovered and that's the kind of journey that a lot of clients and financial services are going through as they think about consumer facing services, business facing services, how their employees can use this within countries. And then cross borders as well. I I the cross border thing I was just gonna mention as well, what we are seeing with a lot of our clients is that's the major catalyst to in investing in piloting some of the use of the technology as well. Cause that is a major blocker in many different scenarios. So often that's, that's the way that the organizations are, are using it as the foundation for the initial thinking research into the value of the technology. Yeah. And they believe there's a business case there, right? Yeah.
I have a simple one. My wife is my CFO for the family. She's much better at it than I am and many times she'll be working on a bank account and guess where the OTP comes to my phone and then she's texting me and saying, Hey send me the code. Right? Like, so this is one actually we've talked to banks about, it's a simple thing, but being able to delegate access to an account and have seamless login for both you and your spouse, let's say, even that is a big deal and it's a simple thing but it's a real benefit that can be used done through digital credentials.
Yeah. Picking up on the, the global interoperability element that you both touched on, Theo X we're working on how we have a methodology to explain you. So things are coming together. The analysis we've done so far says yes, people are using the same techniques, they're using the same steps, they're mixing them in different ways in different places and we're starting to unravel that into a methodology that means we could unstack that and stack you back up again as we move from place to place. So we should start to enable the interoperability to be formulated by this super app or smart wallet as it moves from place to place. Picking up on the other question of, you know, who, who should this be good for? It's this gotta be good. We often draw a triangle. It's usually when we're doing principles, but we have on one corner we have the user on another corner, we have the relying party on another corner. We have the policy makers and you usually have to learn something fairly in the middle of that to be successful. If it's too good for any one of the parties, it's not going to work. But the parties this must not be good for is big tech. What we don't want is an ecosystem where all of this ends up in wallets that are controlled by big tech and the only people it's actually good for are the shareholders of those big tech companies.
Okay. If, if you were asked if books are good or bad, what would you say? A book's good or are they, are they bad? You know, is anybody
Anti book just wanna check?
Well, I am, I am anti book, you know, I am Austrian and man Kampf was no seriously man, Kampf was, was really helpful to get other fit into power. So that's, I think a sign that books can be terrible. But of course books can be fantastic as well. I think books themselves are neither good nor bad. And I believe the same is true for wallets. You know, there are amazing things you will be able to do with wallets when you pay with a, with a digital wallet. You don't communicate the credit card number, you communicate a token and that's much more secure. If you show your age with a digital wallet, I will be able to simply prove that I'm over 18 or over 21 without having to show someone a physical passport or ID card that will reveal so much more about myself. And my wife was recently, you know, I I, I left, she left her phone in in the car, her phone is the car key. I was already on my way here and I was able to open the car because we have a digital car key in the wallet. And yet all those promises, you know, everything that wallets can do and stand for, for each of those promises and benefits, there will also be a detriment. So I think what this means is that wallets are neither good nor bad, who benefits and how, you know, you benefit really depends on how we're going to implement them.
Yeah, actually there's a question coming online which kind of talks to this point as well. I think there's a, a perspective here that wallets will become too complex, could be quite probably actually hostile to the end users. And the question that follows is, would we not be better with multiple smaller wallets, these mega wallets not disintegrate the user service provider relationship that we we have today?
I, I think that's a great question and I think it follows on from what Daniel's saying is partly I think we're, we are kind of, we get locked in on a form factor. Yeah. This idea that everything is in at the moment a phone, which I think a few years from now, it's just gonna feel like such an old weird invention. So I think the container and where these things reside, it could be that there's a wallet in the key. So rather than the key being in the wallet, a wallet in the key. And I think this is why the work of the open wallet foundation is so important because we may have a wallet in a refrigerator, we may have a wallet in a key, we may have a wallet in our car and the ability to orchestrate between those where you've got policies and rules and protections.
But I think if we, if we think if we, if we stay kind of trapped with the idea that it's only ever gonna be kind of wallet phone and then to follow on also from, from Daniel's comments in terms of then potentially controlled by an operating system, then, then we've really lost the possibility of, of what's open and where this could go. And so the form factor shouldn't be a limiting factor to kind of where the capability could reside and then that capability can then maybe guard against some of the concerns around whether or not everything is all in one place.
Okay. Any other rest? If you've got an idea of what that form factor, the replacement form factor might look like.
So, so I think it, it's more of a, a question answerer for you when, as we're looking at the way you were explaining frameworks, now what we're realizing is this is about a relying party asking a user a question or often a series of questions for a series of information. And then the user in, in the paper world today fulfills that by I'll get my passport out, I'll go and get some bank statements, I'll get my employment history. And they bring all those stuff together. It's like there's all the information you wanted and that they understand that mental model of doing that and maybe that those things are all actually stored in different places. So is there a divide here between the thing that helps you answer questions and the place where you store the information that lets you answer the questions and then the place is Yeah, so I can guess, oh yeah, okay. That's the question. I want that from there. That from there, that from there, off it goes. So I think there is this maybe other, I don't wanna call it agent because I don't think that's the right word, but this, this assistant for the user orchestrator that is, you know, sitting between the storage area and the answer. And that's, that's the smart bit, but I haven't got a name for it yet.
I think what this has really given us an opportunity is for people to get closer to the internet, the digital and it needs to move with you whether you are on device, whether you're going into the car and you, once you've put those details in once when you go for the second mortgage company, you don't wanna have to put 'em all in again for them. You wanna bring those over and then just add one more element. Or if you're then going on for a different type of loan, you can add just a, a couple more elements onto those. It's very important at the end of the day, this is a better opportunity for us to get closer to people and better user experience. Yeah, we're getting closer and closer all time. We don't wanna miss that opportunity and then go off atomize it into the sub-components.
I think Daryl had
I was just gonna say, do we want AI in our wallet with the current threats that we have? Everybody's perceiving, but no, I think that we have the opportunity to create a seamless experience. We even have web three coming, you know, the younger generations, they're gonna be doing things in in the metaverse, right? They're gonna want to interact there as well and seamlessly move back and forth between the metaverse and the real, the real world and have that session follow them right and go back and forth. So, and the verifiable credentials can be a nexus for that as well and enable that. So I think that we, to your point, it could be in many places, right? As long as we have control and we have a good binding, that's the key. Figuring out how to do the binding. And I know many are even at the conference this week, have been talking about that as well as the next big challenge. Yeah,
I think the, the question was is, you know, is it bad if we have very large players in, in the wallet space? I would say that size per se, large size is not a problem. You know, I love the fact that there is Wikipedia and it's a very large entity and, and you know, it's probably better to have one Wikipedia than a thousand little Wikipedias. So I think having large players is not bad per se. I think the question is what are the motivations of these large players? And if the motivation is to get into transactions and get money out of transactions or to monetize data out of your transactions or to promote your own products in wallets, I believe that is inherently bad for everyone who does not control these wallets. If there was a large player that was a benevolent large player, it, it could be a very good thing. So at least as far as Open Wallet is concerned, this is not anti anyone, anyone can use the open source components that op, that the Open Wallet foundation hopefully is going to produce. But I think to democratize those components and to enable more people to play is something that will be very healthy. Whether you are a small player, a large player, or a government.
Thank you Daniel. Just bringing it back to financial services a little, there's clearly a really important part played by the regulators and you know, the pace technology continues to move can be a real challenge in that. So now that we're adding in the whole identity dimension into this as well, potentially, how do you think the the financial services and wider regulatory world will keep up?
I think corporations always go above and beyond when they can and stretch their boundaries with regards to this topic, right? And if it benefits their customers and users and even helps their shareholders, honestly, they're gonna do it right? But I think the key is frameworks and not rules, right? So principles and frameworks are much more healthy than laws and rules, right? And, and so the key is how can we implement those and reflect those. And that's why even Daniel always says on the open wall foundation, it's, it's a framework, it's a frame. I'm not implicitly defining rules here. We don't want that. We want frameworks and principles right to, to guardrails
Certainly using the US UK as an example, I think one of the challenges from a legal and regulatory point of view is obviously the, the, the, the policy makers keeping up to speed with the development of the technology. But it's also working with the financial services industry to to kind of understand what role the financial services industry's gonna play. So is it gonna be a consumer, is it gonna be a provider of services in this space? That, that that's probably the question at the moment that will inform the design of that legal and regulatory framework. Hopefully keeping up to speed with things. But I think the challenge for the financial services industry is trying to understand how it wants to play a role in this space. Is it a provider of the wallet? Is it a consumer of the wallet? How does it use appropriately the data that it has on the consumers and users that it, that it provides services to. Okay,
Great. Well once the question's open, we have five minutes left and I thought maybe
Mark, I have one more thought about, you know, how on your last question for the banks, are you familiar with the saying boiling the frog? So the, the theory, apparently I'm not an expert, but is that, you know, when you boil a frog and you increase the temperature slowly, the frog will never realize that he's actually boiled to death. So I think for banks, this is the danger they have to avoid. You know, imagine you are in a very, very cold lake and you're a frog and you start heating that lake and you say, oh this is actually very comfortable, right? This is, this is great, my life becomes better. So I think wallets will make life better for banks because your KYC cost will decrease. If you have amazing wallets for your credit cards and debit cards, that will be a boon. You're going to sell more credit cards. But as the temperature increases, the question is if you lose the the wallet, if you lose the relationship to your customer, it's no longer you who has that KYC data, it's someone else. It's no longer you controlling the experience of the payment. It's someone else. All of a sudden it may get a little too hot for comfort.
Great. So audience, any questions before we run out of time for the panel here? Good for nails. Where, where if we can get Mike just shout.
Yeah, I'll shout. So you mentioned one of you mentioned the big tech, I think it was you and, and super apps. Is there any option,
Speaker 10 00:33:53 Do we have any alternative as a super app except I use iPhone personally and they have a tight grip on the whole NFC tap experience. So until we break that, do we need to talk about this? I mean it's a done deal. It'll be my, it'll be Apple and it'll be Google or is there room for wiggle room in there?
Yeah, it's interesting to say that cause Android allow NFC payments obviously and Androids have got 8% of the global market I think, I dunno the current stats, but it's something like that. But, and then you're seeing the eu, they're pushing, so you do start see regulation coming in to push to say, and you've gotta open that NFC up and they're quite happily not doing so obviously cuz it's a benefit to them. But yeah, it's always that. But when it becomes that you've got open wallets that are not necessarily just on devices who might be at point of sale in effect through biometrics or other principles like that, suddenly you're not device dependent anymore. It's where of your identity. So there, there is a potential to move it past that. But yeah, it's a very strong scenario at the moment. But yeah, on Android you can do it with n NFC payments.
Well you gotta remember wallets can be on a MacBook, it could be on a Windows machine, could be even in the cloud, right? So don't assume it's just the, the mobile phone like we talked about before. There's opportunity here to do amazing things regardless of where the storage is, the mechanism. I think somebody in the back
And the dma I think, you know, watch the dma, I think that's going to be really interesting in Europe and hopefully it will trickle down. Hmm.
Okay. Anymore we've got about a minute and a half to go. Oh yeah. Front row here.
Speaker 11 00:35:46 Thank you. Coming from a bank or banking, I think a lot of these use cases, the potential is very much dependent on collaboration, power of community. And you see open wallet, you see diff you see open Id connect. So to do cross border banking, to have the levels of trust, I think the banking industry needs to come together and discuss. Cause it's very much an exercise in standardization. Do you see that happening? Well what more could be done? I'll,
I'll take that one with a bit, a little bit of a funny, so about two years ago I received this t-shirt from my colleague in Australia who used to work at a bank now works at Australia Payments authority's building a digital identity system. He's part of the standards body, he's collaborating with other digital identity ecosystem builders around the world. So I'm quite optimistic that there, there will be collaboration in this space internationally. And from my perspective as representing standards bodies, what you do when you join a standards body and you, you contribute to it is you make your team bigger and we can really make quite a big difference globally by or through the safe spaces that the open standards bodies provide.
And I think what I would add on the standards bodies this year versus last year. Last year versus the year before, there's never been so much clarity provided to get started. Yeah. Such amazing things have wrapped up in the last year or two to a point where there's clarity, there's a version that's published, there's a place to start. And you know, a few years ago, you know, lots of things were bubbling under the surface but they weren't as mature as they are now. And I'm, I'm just blown away in over these last couple of days at how much progress has been made in the last six months. Yeah. And the six months before that. So yes, I think at some point there may be then the leapfrog to do some kind of harmonization that might fall to to, to a trusted party to do that. But I think for a long time I heard excuses around making decisions that there wasn't enough clarity. Oh we don't wanna get started, we don't know where to start. You know, the standards aren't clear. And I think the great thing is there are amazing building blocks of clarity. Is there more to come? Absolutely. But there's never been a better time to dive into. Yeah. What a
Positive note to finish on. Thank you Katrina. We're outta time. Thank you very much everybody, especially as we're, you know, getting towards the end of the day on the later part of the conference. Is there anything else anybody'd like to cover or should we call it there? I think we should call it there. Yeah. Is that the right? Yeah, right move. Great. Thank you very much. I'd like to put your hands together for the panel.