Panel Discussion - From Risk to Value: The Future of Social Media and their Role as Catalysts in Enterprise IAM

So this will we, we're going to have this earlier in the day. So we'll just go ahead and do it now and talk a little bit about life management platform issues and with this group. So here on the left, we got Mario Hoffman who spoke a little earlier about the research they've been doing about life management platforms, doc who's wisdom and vision on vendor relationship management, and the intention economy are changing the planet. And then we've got New York hu and I haven't seen his presentation.

So I don't know exactly his view, but in talking with him at dinner last night, I was excited to hear his thoughts and what his thinking is. And of course, Kim Cameron, Mr.

Identity, welcome. Need me say more? Who is it?

The God, the white intensity, Jim Cameron, Who must be named Martin. Cameron. He who requires everything be named Steve Martin said those French. They have a different word for everything. Okay. So we'll just go ahead and start. And I'm gonna pass the mic down to the end and we'll come across of what your thoughts are for the, the basic definition requirements for making a life management platform work well.

I mean, I like the definition. I, I think it's right and that, you know, we've got the, that this whole notion of making it plugable and vendor free and so on is all essential. I liked what you said in your presentation yesterday, when you, you, you talked about, you know, the different things, people call the components of life management. I think it's important. We don't get into sort of arguments over what we're calling like the finger that points at the moon is not the moon.

If I may, you know, borrow the ex expression. So we have to re remember that that, you know, whether we call it vendor relationship management or, or something else, these are all aspects of something, which I think as you pointed out, we don't even know what the full dimensions of it are.

So my, you know, I made a, a, a foray into that direction into the direction of looking after the end user individual. And what I found was there's really there's no, he has no. Or she has no representative in our economy, no advocate, no, no direct advocate. So therefore it's hard, you know, it's really hard.

What you have to find is enlightened people who, who are advocates of other actors in the system who are enlightened enough to figure out that they should advocate for the end user or the individual person, but they don't, it isn't as though they have their own railing advocates, the way the other parties of the system. Do you know? So what I've tried to do is, is to, I've tried to say, well, okay, who are the people who have this, these who have the economic power and, and really in identity, I think it's the service providers, the relying parties.

And, and so then the question is, okay, if we enable them, if we are able to enable them to easily hook into the, I don't wanna, I'm starting to say, VRM the VRM life management platform, blah, blah, blah. Right. If we have the, you can, that, that platform framework. Yeah. The framework. Yeah.

If we, if we have the, if we build that ability into what the service providers can easily do, then we at least put in place the infrastructure. So that, that they, that, that people can, can, can turn it on in a sort of, part of their conventional, I'm gonna choose this option. I'm gonna choose that option. And oh yeah. And I'll turn on the BRM with no friction with no friction. And so in terms of my, my own contribution, that's the only, that's all I can contribute right now. And then meanwhile, I look at what people are doing and I find it absolutely fascinating.

I mean, find it fascinating. I find it powerful and I, I believe it is the future, but I believe we also have to, to make it the future.

The, the number one thing we have to do is build it into the infrastructure that is emerging for the service providers, who, who, who actually control the economics. So maybe I'm wrong and, and I can be, and, and I stand to be corrected.

Well, it certainly sounds like a vision that is a champion for the individuals. And I, I like it, but that's, I could be wrong along with you. That's rub together. That's require go ahead. New York. Okay. Yeah. It's too bad that you didn't see my presentation yesterday. I would be referring to it. Otherwise You can go ahead, Matt. I think a lot of people here did, I just tried to explain it a little. I come from, from an operator from D telecom.

And I do think that in the course of the life management, we need to come up with an ecosystem in the sense of something that really is able to evolve something that comes up of, of its own power and, and multiplies and gets bigger. And in the end, lets us all live in such a society.

Yes, we imagine here, this definitely requires ecosystem like functionalities, eco system, like aspects to the whole thing. The contribution that I was making yesterday to it is the work we are doing, which has been heavily influenced by Kim. So there's not much to say about my mindset then because I'm working on a mobile wallet and that's not just the mobile wallet, but it's a wallet with a, with an item paradigm card or whatever it is that represents a relationship, a relationship between for example, an issuer and me as a person.

But it could also be a token that allows me to access my nest at home, or that allows me to use the bus because it's actually a ticket making it that universal and putting it on top of a platform that could be run by an operation like ours, a company that can run such a system, basically, which has a certain degree of trust. And then using technologies that separate the information and influence that operators and service providers have on the transactions is very important. We learned that from the credit card in industry and the whole wallet payment industry.

When we have a credit card sitting on our SIM card, we don't even know that this virtual credit card is being used with an NFC terminal device, a payment terminal. We don't even see that. And I think that's a good design because we are not the ones who are responsible for the payment transactions. We were responsible for providing this virtual credit card and for provisioning it onto the SIM card. That's our job. If we run such a platform, but the actual transactions are not our job, but that's a job of a bank.

And I think it's very important that the user in the end is able to choose between multiple banks between using a credit card or a debit card or a prepaid card or whatever that sits on the phone. So the multitude of solutions should be enabled through such a platform, a multitude of identities, basically being connected with it. Because for many of the things that we do today, we don't need to have an identity in the sense of a societal identity of a person. It just needs to be approved of my entitlement or something that allows a personalization of the service to a certain degree.

So my bank gets totally different set of attributes then gets Amazon or then gets my music provider or anyone else. And this is what we want to keep separate. It can be represented in an item in such a wallet, a wallet doesn't need to be just one thing. It could be distributed. It could be sitting in the cloud. It could be, it could have like copies of itself reduced copies, for example, on my setup box some on my mobile phone, someone, my PC. And that could be a very powerful thing.

And that's the thing that we wanted to contribute in the sense of having a mobile, a life management idea that really makes sense in economic sense, so it can evolve. Okay. So let me ask you a question before you move on. Can you give us a kind of a timeline of when Deutsche bank will get this wallet online? That's Deutsche telecom on this, I'm Sorry. Have an Acquired the bank. Yeah. I meant telecom.

We, we are a payment provider. We have acquired click and buy, which is kind of like a European PayPal. So we can do that. It has already been published in the very first release in Poland end of last year, no beginning of this year. Sorry. That was a plan before that. But anyway, all these plans usually are shifted around and before we have this kind of functionality available, it'll probably take a little more time, but definitely I can say we are working on it to make that as open as I can to go that way. But the first things we'll see will be rather restricted to a few payment services.

We'll start doing a bit of couponing and so on and will be our jobs at the labs. I come from the R and D part of that company to, for example, provide for a developer Porwal that allows just anyone to create objects with any kind of authentication business logic or whatever behind it to be used. And that should be then our business. We don't need to know what's in it. We just need to be the conveyor of its functionality.

Okay, go ahead, doc. Back in late 2004, Kim down at the end here wrote the seven laws of identity. The first of which I remember well, and it struck me at the time as user control and consent. And those two roles, those two requirements, those two nows, two requirements are actually two sides of the coin of the social contract that we have with business. We need control of our lives and we need consent from of ourselves to the service providers that we have in the world and also from them to us.

And that's a kind of relationship that is implicit in life management platforms, the notion behind life management platforms, that the term of which I really like, I like the, the recognition that each of us has a life. That life is full of data. That life is full of capacities that are enabled by our, our electronic devices and that we ought to have control of them. And that is absolutely at odds with almost everything that business has tried to do with us so far.

It is absolutely at odds with what Google's trying to do with what, what Facebook's trying to do with what LinkedIn for that matter. And, and Twitter are trying to do these very familiar and very young companies that we're dealing with every day, which are taking data from us, that we have no idea what they're doing with the entire advertising system that, that the traffic on the web and the net right now, that is, that is promotional is absolutely overwhelming as I'm sure you guys know, especially the amount that is actual business.

This, this speculation about us is huge. There are companies out there, IBM, almost chief among them saying, you don't really need to talk to your customer. We're gonna follow them around and get all this data about them and develop the million point portrait of that customer. And you can relate to that portrait. It's insane. It's actually insane. And it's insane because there's this disconnect between each of us and the, the businesses of the world.

So, so I, I just salute the whole effort to, to create life management platforms as a term, I, I wanna make clear, I've been working at something called vendor relationship management for the last six years. I am not attached to that term.

And so, but They're complimentary. I don't see, I they're totally other, I think, I think, I think life management platform is a bigger circle than, than vendor relationship management is. And I think vendor relationship management is something that the CRM companies of the world as sales forces and IBM's and Microsoft dynamics of the world ought to embrace, but they haven't so far. Right. And I think it's very, very hard when we're sitting all of us, almost all of us in this room are wearing two hats.

We're wearing the business hat of where, where we work and we're wearing the consumer hat. Yeah, no, there's Craig wears two hats. That's right. The revolutionary hat.

Yeah, there we go. I want him to have a red star in the front of this Viva VRM yeah. And I want a t-shirt with that image on it. That'd be good, But there's, we are in business. We are at war with ourselves right now in, in many ways, you know, who, especially those of us that I worked in marketing for many years, you know, who I was when I was at work was very different than the guy who was at home, receiving these messages all the time that I was working on at work.

And it's kind of crazy, but we, you know, with life management platforms is this assumption that we are in charge of our lives and we, to me that's, I mean, however else, that, however that happens, I like what Craig said last night. I couldn't repeat any of it, cuz it was complicated, but I think it's gonna be a good thing if we get it.

But we're, it's gonna be very, very hard to start with business. You have to start with the individual. So here's how you repeat what I said. Okay. Fusion drive, Fusion drives, fusion drives. As he has. He explained fusion drives to you. I hope he's explained fusion drives if he hasn't. That's part of the point. Yes. Go ahead Mario.

Well, I have to admit that the requirements that are showed at the first slide are not new. I mean, and all the aspects and well things that we have in mind, if you talk now about life management platforms are not new, you were talking about vendor, relationship management, the loss of identity. I can remember some more than 10 years ago during the Ts auctions, all those nice location based service scenarios were on the table. Okay. No money left to implement them. But already at that time I thought, well, we have now a mobile operator. He's operating the network.

He, he knows where I am, who I am and now he's going to know what I'm using. So this is pretty much information in just one hand of a private company. So at that time and what triggers me and motivated me at all the time was okay, how can I protect the user privacy, the data? And it's getting more and more data and who has control over it and why, and who is going, going to sell something. And then those terms like user empowerment appeared and user centricity and such things. And I mean, I, maybe I'm in a rather comfortable position I'm with a research institution.

So I don't have to think that much about business models, but at the end of the day, somebody has to pay for it. And sometimes even my boss is asking me, Hey, okay, Mario, nice ideas, privacy and so on, but who's going to pay us for this. And I have to say, well, don't know, maybe you get some public funding and even this doesn't work every time. So actually my aspect, my approach is also rely on some kind of business people who are willing to, yes, we agree.

There needs to be some more empowerment, some, some more user control that the user don't leave its trust into this kinds of treatment of personal data. Because we are just at the beginning, I just mentioned this kind of future internet of people, things and services, context to where rooms and so forth and so forth. So there will be a lot of more application domains use cases where I can use my personal data and take advantage of contextualized environments or personalized services. A lot of comfort. I'm really looking forward to this, but I'm not sure what the price will be.

And here, maybe life mentioned platform. Maybe sometimes these kinds of thoughts just need a new label to bring a little bit drive in it again. And this is my hope with this life management platform, which triggered me last year at the European identity conference. And overall, this sounds good things I've used to do the last years and now I can just give it a name and that's why I'm just a little bit behind it and like to yeah, drive it, drive it a little bit with you. Great.

So now I'd like to open it up for questions on the floor for this great panel and let's see what you have to say any questions now. So, So I think there's a technology to do in just looking at the keys presentation. I don't know what protocol they're using. You can actually improve it completely standard base with current technology. No problem. And there are also examples of in business working like that.

I mean, it's going to reduce the friction very much. There are examples of in running parties actually paying for that. So you were talking about the business model and the relying parties can pay for actual services.

You know, my position is that I know when I see a service that benefits me, I have no problem paying for that. I'm not gonna, I don't want it for free. And the number of services that we're looking at that could, could be invented at layer seven when the basic infrastructure is put in place is infinite. It's infinite and people, you know, the, the water flows where the money does there, people will figure out how to build services that we want. Here's the interesting thing with the, with the life management platform, guess what you are a service provider.

Now that doesn't mean that you can go out and say, as a service provider, I'm gonna charge you as a relying party for my services. It means that now you are responsible for running a set of services that are about you and your life. That's pretty powerful.

Now, if I don't want to get locked into a single vendor or some silo to do that, because as soon as I'm locked in and guess what, they start making money off me that doesn't work or they're dragging their feet or not keeping up I'm I'm out of there. And it doesn't mean the interoperability that I can just take my whole wa of life management platform and put it in another silo. I want it to be componentized into be modular so that I can pick the one that works for me, plug it in, make it run. So go ahead. So there's technology there. There's business case that's been proven. It's not good.

What's the problem, right? Since year 2007, actually we have been running that since year 2007. That's perfect, but people are following. Why is that Pretty simple? The question is why aren't people following and I, and I'll answer mine and I'll let other people try at the core of this, our names and, and identity. If I can't resolve that in a way that is what Kim Cameron calls democratized and professionalized, we will continue to drag our feet and the den of this industry, which basically attends this conference. Love to be in charge of managing identity. How cool that is.

How do we monetize that? And it's not that that's not where we make the money let's make, you know, it's, it reminds me of the, the network adapter cards who charged for the T C P I P stack. Right? If you buy my card, you use my T C P I P. And it doesn't interoperate with anyone else's cuz my stack is superior. How crazy is that? Can you imagine trying to charge for T C P I P stack today and then, and they would charge hundreds of dollars per station for a protocols for the transport identity management as a service is the transport of life management platforms. You don't charge for that.

You make it work with no friction. You give it away.

You say, use the identity and build the services. Let's move to let's move up the stack.

You know, it's crazy to be thinking that I'm gonna sell the transport. Sorry.

No, that's cool. I just, I I'm so tempted to tell interesting stories about your past, but that are illustrative and I won't Well, somebody else who kept control too, let's Go. Yeah. Well I'll tell you this one in respect to that, cuz this is goes way back into the past. But when Craig was working at Nove and, and, and PC's ruled the world and there was a huge business in sticking interface cards in the back planes of PCs and I, I was, I lived with another Silicon valley dad and his teenage kid.

And that guy was worked for national semiconductor and sold semiconductors by the bazillions to Threecom and to Noel. And Threecom bragged about their, their ethernet interface cards and, and, and the millions of dollars they made with that. They were number one in ethernet interface cards. And my housemate said to me, well, you know, Craig and the guys at Nobel are actually buying a lot more of these things and installing a lot more of them. And I asked Craig, well, why aren't you making a big deal out of that? And he said, because it's going to be a $0 business.

Pretty soon Think about It right now, it's going to go away. And it was like, and I watched it right after that, just crater right in, you know, and, and he loved it. That Threecom was making a big deal about that because he said, you know, that's just gonna be a socket on the back of your PC pretty soon. Cuz Intel is just gonna integrate that with the board. And it's over My, my age two 11 on this phone is wireless and it's free if they, if it didn't come with wireless, I wouldn't have buy it right. Included.

So I don't, I have to say, I don't even know what the hell an identity service is. I, but here's the identity problem that I wanna see solved.

And, and this is what I mean about us wearing our, our own hats. I have to, because of all the silos in the world, I have to remember a zillion logins and passwords all over the damn place. So the identity service gets rid of that, What I'm saying. And I think if, if somebody gets rid of that as a problem that relieves so much friction in the marketplace, I can't begin to cover it. That's What it does.

The, the thing is to me, a life management platform, I like what you're saying about wallet. And, and I was actually about this wallet. This is a vendor relationship management tool I have right here. Okay. It lets me it, it is substitutable. I can get rid of this wallet and get a different wallet.

In fact, this is my European wallet, cuz it carries bigger money than my American wallet does. And it has a bunch of, and more of it, some of them were useful and some of them were useless cards here in Europe, but it's a way for me to organize these things. And right now Google and Facebook and not Facebook, Google and PayPal and others are saying, I, you use my wallet and I will have a Google branded wallet. It will work only with my Google partners.

Well, screw that. I am not interested in that. I hate it when I go to pizza, it's my favorite coffee place in the us. And I can use my Google wallet on my Android phone in order to buy money, by buy a coffee by touching this thing useless to me. I don't have an Android phone. I have one, but I don't carry. My kid does. And I don't have Google wallet and I wouldn't want one because a wallet is personal.

And, and, and, and that's, you know, I like what you're saying about it here. So I I'm hoping it's what my fantasy of a wallet is, but, but it's, you know, it's, it's the electronic version of this. That's a lot better than this, but is mine, you know, that has to, to me, it's like, you know, when I said this in my book, you know, possession is nine 10 of the three year old, you know, we're all born with opposable thumbs and we have the first person possessive pronoun. It's mine. Right?

And, and, and there's, and that is a, a fundamental aspect of being human is that we have a sense of control of our lives. Now it's his, it's Now it's his. Why not?

But, but it's an interesting thing. Do you see how That water works? Why not?

You know, but here's what I'm gonna hand this to you. You are now Google because that's what you've been doing to me. I'm not kidding.

It's like, oh, you, you left this here, you came onto the internet. So I am entitled to all this data about you.

And, but trust me with it because I can give you so much better services than you would ever get on your own. I mean, you want, You would commend you.

So, and, and, and the thing is they can get away with that because we're stuck in the calf cow system. We call client server where we've been since 1995 and have not thought out a better way to do this thing. So I think we need to, and I hope with LMPs we can do it. Great.

Not your, your question is something had A question. Oh, sorry. I Also, I don't know Whether it's the right question at the right moment. It's going more into detail regarding business models.

Am I wrong if I suspect that what we are discussing around life management platforms, that this would perfectly work in the employee enterprise relationship and replacing mostly everything we nowadays know about, you know, provisioning systems, single sign on whatever there is that they collaboration tools with the enterprise isn't that isn't life management made for this kind of systems Like Oracle, E R P Sounds to me like this would be a proof of failure. If it only worked there, if we need a controlled environment in order to make it work, it's probably not this ecosystem like thing.

And it's not that person-centric like thing that I would understand it should be. Well, I, I think the answer is that, that it, it, that's a negotiation between the employer and the employee about how much my life management plays a role in that.

And, and that, that, that's why it has to be no silo, why it has to be complete freedom of choice and freedom of vendor. Because if I don't do that, then that's gonna restrict me for how, what, how I'm gonna answer the question to my current employer or potential employer.

You know, what, what if I can say, well, sorry, I picked the Google version and I can only work with companies that support that, you know, I'm screwed. I'm not gonna do that.

You know, We say such a platform has to be totally interoperable. So suppose there are standards around, which I usually use for providing such a service. Why couldn't an employer be a provider for his employees. If you change company, you know, it's totally interoperable, IHS carry it's to the new Employer. Okay. So that's the model, Replacing traditional provisioning, things, silent, whatever, with user empowerment self-service and all those things we had before, but maybe now we're gonna have it in a more user-centric way.

Well, I certainly, in my opinion, if you, if interoperably Italy means that you move your platform data to another silo, it's not interoperable. That's ridiculous. I will make a point. Okay.

I mean, I think one thing that one thing we can say for sure is that whatever happens in consumer space takes over what happens inside the enterprise. It's just a matter of time, right? And so if we are saying that this is gonna, that this is a deep social trend, which I think it will be, and it will take over consumer space. Ultimately it will take over and, and deeply influence the way enterprises interact with their employees too, and governments and other organizations.

But on, on, and the other thing you can see is if you look at the phone as despicable as it is when made by some manufacturers, I won't mention names, but it's spelled apple. No, no. It's spelled in several ways. No. When you look at the, at, at the phone and which is a lovable and hateable thing, let's put, let's call it that both lovable and hateable, it is the, what the nascent life management platform. It has a lot of your information.

We are all depending on all the time, getting our context or phone numbers, calendar, or, you know, email or this there's a lot of it already there, just in a device sense, not in the sense of all of the content, things that are to come and let's look at what happens with that in the enterprise. Enterprises are going, we better change before we would say, you couldn't use anything inside the enterprise, except our standards issued computer. And you will not bring in a, a USB key and you will not do any of this.

I'm sorry, I'm imitating Craig's voice here, then boomer. Whereas now, you know, what's the big watchword B Y O D bring your own device. Everybody. We all have to have ways that everybody can bring in their phone and use. They have to be able to use whatever phone they want.

And, and so we already see the life management platform invading the enterprise. So in that sense, I think, you know, something else very profound is also happening and in terms of our well, you know, and I guess in terms of why, or when are people adopting, I watch, you know, I've been a, of course, a long time fan of doc's work on this. It's so incredible. And you know, but doc is, is, is proposing this thing, which is for the management of the, you know, of the, of the individual's life.

And yet spends much of his time in order to get something done, talking to the service providers, the relying parties. And so that's, I guess the it's a sort of a paradigm shift is the ones we have to talk to, to make this happen are the service providers and the enlightened ones who see that if they, you know, as, as, as doc says, instead of doing this scattered scatter, what do you call it?

Scattering, all kinds of propaganda over the whole society, directing specific information that people want to hear to customers who say, I want to hear that, you know, when you get a such a more efficient mechanism, you know, convincing people within the sort of enterprise environment that, that this is a possibility, a real possibility. And I think that is what is taking has taken time. But I personally see many people, I see more and more people who are aware of it.

Like, I think doc doc's work is really paying off, you know, and I see it inside my own company and I see it inside a lot of other companies. It's just, it's a big shift to turn the world upside down. Right. And so it takes time, but I, I do see it happening.

Jeff, Jeff Isn't, isn't this really kind a cost issue as far as tools. I mean, when, when computers first came out, they were relatively expensive. And when they started using human business, the business issued you the tool because they couldn't expect you to buy computing powers. Now cheap enough that everyone's got their own device. And that's where B Y O D is coming. That's kind of the transition point to where it's gonna be like carpenters, who are expected to come to work with their own tools. And the business empowers you to use your own tools.

So rather than them issuing tools, they'll probably stop doing that when the costs get to a sort of point, cause they know everyone's got once that happens. I mean, the kind of balance of power is, has shifted. And I'm hoping that that's, that's gonna be one of the key drivers, just they and with, Well, it, it already has that done that the question is, is, is the democratization of identity that, you know, it, it's got to be done in a way that's uniformed standard and without friction.

And we don't have that right now, what we have are silos of identity that don't IOP with each other that take a lot of effort to do and are built around making money for the people that issue those identity provider, those identity components. And that's, that's gotta flatten that's the democratization of it and become professional in the way that, that I'm not doing identity in my basement.

You know, that there's an organization big enough that or a community big enough, that's resolved the problem in a way that I know it's gonna be consistent and work all the time. And as long as we're doing identity in the garage, you know, we're gonna have the problem that we have right now. We can't move past that point in the stack to get where we're buying real services that we love for our, for our life platform. Go ahead. But I want to answer, but I think, Okay, well, I just want to pick up one thing. When things get that cheap, they enable us to do one thing.

And I think that's very important. We are surrounded by a digital environment. It's increasingly digitizing and we are, we are human beings. We have biological interfaces. So I would hope that we will find digital instruments that help us interfacing with that environment. And that's what I plan to do. That's what I think that also the life management needs to deliver to us. We need to be able to really control things.

If I go to a, to, to my laptop, to my iPad, to my employer's PC, they all require me to use identity management because there are different devices, different channels into the systems. I need something which is very personal, which is mine. Something that helps me connecting with all these things. And when sensors start to, to record all our, our activities that gets even more important, how can I tell them to not record, to shut up or whatever we need kind of digital extensions of ourselves that help us to control the digital environment. And that's what I hope we'll see here.

I really like your point, Jeff, that that early on PCs were expensive and people did, you know, I, I coveted getting an apple two and then getting an IBM PC and then getting a Macintosh. And I never got any of those until my company finally bought one of those things. And then we all shared it. And that happened to be a Macintosh was in 84.

And, but later after a while, actually the, the clone business with IBMC being clone suddenly made those things cheap. The, the internet with protocols made communications zero in cost, all due respect to the phone companies, the world, they never would've invented it because phone companies are billing companies and they that's a core competency of theirs and they wanna build that into it. They still wanna build it into it. And this is a problem. Okay?

So we, the, the IBM PC is a white box commodity operating systems, including windows and Linux are, are white boxes of a sort they're cheap or free. And you can put 'em to use that's Panasonic here, your Dell, or IBM there gives you a couple of Lenovos over there. They're they're white boxes. Essentially. You can put anything you want on them. They are yours, right? This is not mine. This belongs to apple.

And at, and T we do not have a white box personal device on us yet. And somebody needs to invent that. That is a missing piece for if I'm gonna manage my life. I can't have apple in my pocket and I can't have at and T in my pocket thinking that they run my lives.

That's, that's a wow Deutsche, tele might be, but, but that's, but it's a tough one and a tough one, a tough one. So, so let me ask you this about, I'd love to ask you this, because I'm, I'm gonna ask it in a couple weeks to whole bunch of Teles together are okay. Right now you're giving location data to other parties, but not necessarily to the users. Are you a traffic data, for example, right. Okay. That goes out. Not so much. Okay. Are you willing, are you willing to give to the user, to the customer, the data you're collecting about them With Their via API Via API? Yes.

We, we have that actually. So there is an API available it's called developer garden and DT where you have access to the data, if you are authenticated authorized to use it.

And so on, I think it only works for the fixed network. That's just because of the compartmentation of our company. So that's an organizational thing. And basically the API is there, but the functionality not anymore, because it just didn't pay off. So that's the problem, but that already addressed didn't pay off. It didn't pay off.

So, but That's because the life management socket wasn't there, there was nothing To, so management socket. So as, as Ment bust, What we're as telcos, at least in Germany and in Europe in general, I think we have a hard time selling that data because of regulation and public image and so on. So that's really, really hard.

And I actually, in my work try to emphasize this because I do think that rather than making a little revenue from using the data, making big money from being a trusted provider, for example, by providing platform components, which you would definitely use, you need someone to operate. Things would be much more a future business for telco, especially since we are so bad at reusing data in comparison to the other companies who are doing it freely.

So better, not compete here and emphasize this, this is my own vision on it. And I see more and more telcos going along that way somehow, but short time business requirements make it very hard for times. All right, thanks. I'm just gonna let Mario have his say, and then, then we're gonna close up and get ready for the next panel, which is just gonna continue this, huh? The next extravagant answer. Welcome.

Welcome, Mario. I just wanted to, to add one aspect to York's question here.

I mean, basically I'm open to any kind of host who's going to sorry to provide this kind of life management platform functionality. That could be even a company, but I would assume that in, in my ideal world, that in the future. So when do you start to manage your life and your identity data as a teenager, I guess maybe even earlier, maybe your mom has already, whatever you have your personal domain with the age of zero. So when I apply the first time for company for a job, I would assume that I have already a large profile in my life mentioned platform.

And then maybe I have just, I give this company maybe some authorization in the first interaction to get access to my CV. And the CV contains a specific attributes of my, of my profile. And I authorize this to you maybe for four weeks and then it's over and so forth. So the important thing is here. Then if I have maintained already, let's say for 10 years, this kind of life management stuff, I have to make sure that, well, there is the right protocol in place so that a company can get access. And I understand what you are requesting and, and you understand what I answering you.

So this is why I think it's important to, to talk also about the standards. Don't know how many, how much time do we have still left here to talk about the standards that we need.

But yeah, this is actually what I wanted to add to, to this point. Thanks.

Well, thanks everybody for attending and for the, these panelists for participating in the great questions and we'll continue at four 30 in about 10 minutes. So.