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The "Bridging Borders" session at EIC 2024 focuses on the pivotal challenge and opportunity of creating a seamless global framework for identity and payment wallets. As digital transformation accelerates, the need for a robust, interoperable system that transcends geographical, technological, and regulatory boundaries has never been more critical. This one-hour session will explore the advancements, challenges, and collaborative efforts required to achieve universal interoperability for identity verification and financial transactions.
Participants will engage with leading experts and thought leaders who are at the forefront of shaping the future of digital identity and payment ecosystems. The discussion will encompass a range of key topics, including:
"Bridging Borders: Achieving Global Interoperability for Identity and Payment Wallets" is more than a session; it's a collaborative platform for stakeholders from various sectors to converge, share insights, and forge the path towards a globally connected, secure, and efficient digital future.
The "Bridging Borders" session at EIC 2024 focuses on the pivotal challenge and opportunity of creating a seamless global framework for identity and payment wallets. As digital transformation accelerates, the need for a robust, interoperable system that transcends geographical, technological, and regulatory boundaries has never been more critical. This one-hour session will explore the advancements, challenges, and collaborative efforts required to achieve universal interoperability for identity verification and financial transactions.
Participants will engage with leading experts and thought leaders who are at the forefront of shaping the future of digital identity and payment ecosystems. The discussion will encompass a range of key topics, including:
"Bridging Borders: Achieving Global Interoperability for Identity and Payment Wallets" is more than a session; it's a collaborative platform for stakeholders from various sectors to converge, share insights, and forge the path towards a globally connected, secure, and efficient digital future.
Yeah, thank you for, for being here and frankly, and thank you for getting up early. What time is it? 6:00 AM and so I'm doing great. The sun is rising. It's all good here. Thank you. Thank you very much for joining us. We want to talk about bridging borders. Maybe we start with a brief round of introductions.
Marie, can I start with you? Yes, Of course. And hopefully you can hear me. Yes. My name is Marie Au. I am leading digital identity at Visa here in Europe and we definitely do crossing borders, starting with payment. And of course I'm looking at how can we add identity as a trust anchor to payments in addition to what else we have. So here to explore them intersection between identity and payments, which is very much cross border. So it's a nice, nice topic.
So Bri, you from Bhutan, the Kingdom of Bhutan was the very first country to join the Open Wallet governmental advisory Council, so thank you very much for that. Thank you.
Yeah, I think good. No to everyone. So just to give a brief inter introduction about myself, so I'm ri pr, I working as a project manager for the National Identity Identity Project of Bhutan.
So, so NDI in in Bhutan was launched last year in 2023. We are eight months old, so we have around a hundred and thousand citizens onboarded now on, on, on the platform. And we have covered around 15 use cases. And I think one of the priority of use cases, what we're looking forward was also to have these cross border interoperability so that the credentials which are issued in Bhutan is also recognized elsewhere. And keeping, we are all keeping a close eye into the developments, what's happening in eu, especially with the I DS 2.0.
I'm really happy that I think we are moving towards the same directions and I think ultimately, I think one day we'll we'll converge into the same, same, same part. So thank you Didier. People may not recognize the company name, but they do recognize the products.
No, thank, thank you. I'm, I'm did, I'm working for Gen Digital for, you probably don't know Gen Digital, but we are the largest, largest consumer cybersecurity company in the world since the merger between Norton and Avast. And with regard to my personal, you know, experience, I came into gen following the acquisition by Avast of Secure Key. And in fact Seckey was a leading developers in the forefront of providing digital identity, actually working with bank in Canada. So one of the leading identity networks in private public partnership with bank in Canada.
So what we are looking for in this evolution where we empower more and more end users and being a leading contributor cybersecurity companies to empower more and more user, not only with protecting their, when they, they do transaction online, but helping them with managing their identity, becoming more, having more agency over their, their identity data and be able to use that regardless of the use case. And obviously 80% of the time, if not more, when you do a a, a, A use case, it end up with a payment transaction somehow.
So I think bridging border between identity verification, consumer centricity and payment is absolutely essential to develop the digital economy more broadly. Ramesh, we just had Pramod here, I think it was Pramod who introduced us originally. I'm really glad you're, you're here. Can you tell us a little bit about you and Mo?
Yeah, thank you Daniel and thank you for having us here and I work for Moip, it's an open source platform for identity issuance and we have been building this and making it available for countries in the global south. We have live deployments in four countries and active engagement with another 17 which are going on. And we have issued more than a hundred million identity credentials so far. We also are building an open source wallet that can be used in these countries hopefully.
And some of the problems that we deal with are very different from the first world where we are having this discussion. And I hope to be able to bring the same kind of interoperability and flexibility to the people of the global south whenever they travel there or when people from here travel to those countries. And frankly, and you work for a large bank, but I think you're wearing two hats. You also have some history with one of our panelists in a Pan-Canadian venture. Exactly. Very nice to see. Thank you for having me. Very nice to see you Danielle Marie, very nice to see you Eric.
I'm part of TD Bank. TD Bank is a large Canadian bank, 25 million customers present in both US and Canada. And we've been very active in digital identity. So we've been one of the founding members of very fine me that Eric just referred to. So that's an exciting development. I'm also actively involved in open banking, both in the US and in Canada. And entity also has been very actively developing the, the industry.
We're part of one of the early members of financial data exchange, FDX, the, the standard that both US and Canada have have developed and that is in both countries in the process of hoping to become the official government anointed standard. And so lots of exciting things, lots of cross border dialogues. I look forward to this panel. I I've noticed we are calling, we're talking about regulatory technology geography.
I'd like to add and I'll speak to it as we go, yes, we're very, you know, differentiated in regulatory or technology geographic environment, but also consumer and consumer preferences and consumer psyche is actually quite different. And so I, I'd like to touch on that as well as we, as we go. Thank you for having me. So when we discussed a little bit before this panel, my first suggestion was to start with the challenges and I think Didier it was you who said, well yeah, we talked about challenges so long, we should really talk about solutions and not just get stuck with the challenges.
So very briefly, I think, you know, we are facing a couple of obstacles we need to find, if we want to bridge borders, we need to ensure that we do that in a technical fashion, we do that in a regulatory fashion. We need to have business models that are compatible. If I may start with you, Marie, it seems that in the credit card world we have done that. I can use my, in our case visa card pretty much anywhere in the world and we have overcome those obstacles. Is that a good role model for the, the identity space and for what we want to do with with wallets?
Yeah, I think that's a, that's actually a really interesting perspective. So for, but it's not easy in order for payments to work, there's of course regulations to as anchoring you can, you know, you need to be a bank to give a card. There are agreement around open standards, there are agreement around processes and rules and there is a bunch of people, thousands of people around the world making sure that those rules are being followed. Technology is being implemented according to the specifications. We have interoperability, there is certifications, there is testing.
So it's a huge amount of effort being put in to make it work. But then it works at, you know, at scale and it works predictably. So I think in order to, to, we can use that as a example of, and and to give us hope that it will be possible that we shouldn't amount work that's needed. And this is also where at the importance of private sector, public sector, academia, you know, governments, everyone coming together to, to create those standards, the processes and let the best entities do what they are really good at. But we can, I'm sure we can come back to that as well.
So yes, that's an interesting perspective. We can look at that as the way where we have succeeded. It gives us hope, but there's a lot of work. So Pritt, I read somewhere that Bhutan is the happiest country on earth and in this article it was said that Bhutan is an island of happiness. If I understood you correctly, you don't want Bhutan to be an island of verifiable credentials, but you do look outside of Bhutan and you are looking for solutions that work outside.
Yes, yes, yes. Daniel, thank you for the kind of compliment with regards to the happiness.
Of course, Bhutan is known for gross national happiness. So we measure our development using the gross National Happiness Index. Now coming back to verifiable credential, of course when, when we looked at it for me, how, how do I look at it?
Is, is that the, the problem and, and the solution might, I, I would like to correlate to the story of David and Golet. So Golet is a very strong person and then David is a very tiny person, but then it might look that David will never win over gold yet. But then what we, what what what we try to do is we don't look at the bigger problem. We're trying to find the solutions which is right, right, for the citizens. So for now of course we understand that we might be the first country to implement decentralized ID and we might be just the only sovereign nation having VCs in in our wallets.
Now, when it comes to interoperability, we do want to look into nations who, who is planning to implement that or is already implemented that so that we can test out the, the interoperability. So that's why we are, I I'm very keen in in in in the developments what's happening in EU also to, to have discussions and, and and see the possibilities, how the Bhutanese issued credentials are also recognized here in EU and elsewhere. So we're also talking with Pan Canada, Canada government and, and trying to see.
But, but then I think since this is a very new topic and, and new technology, not many people are, are aware, especially in the epic reason. They're mostly happy with decent centralized version of the identity which is maintain by the government. I think it'll take some time. So we're just waiting and trying to see how it goes. But for now I think we are very, we are very flexible, we are very open and I'm very are very open to also discuss with anyone, any governments and institutions who want to come and try out the interper with us. I think we are very happy to discuss that.
Didier, you really brought this can-do attitude to the topic and I'm not sure if we will be able to bridge borders of, but if we do then I think only with this kind of of attitude. Yeah, also I, you know, we have been at it for quite some time and you know, the comment I made about, let's look at the opportunity more than the challenges and then the, the analogy to the payment network, which is, you know, the learning is that, you know, you take a village and you need more than technology, you need governance framework.
You need to create a lot of check and balance for payment networks to work at scale the way they are working today. Having said that, and again, being always the, the hopeful on my side, I believe that as we are moving into decentralized identity and we empower user and they have agency over their data, then the user become the point of interaction. And when the user is the point of interaction, it remove a lot of risk or I would say think that you have to do behind the scene to protect the user being blinded somehow.
But if the user is the point of interaction, having agency over data, you can focus on more on user experience, you can focus more on interoperability. When I bring myself as a user into an experience versus focusing that everybody enabling the experience is actually not doing the bad thing.
So I'm, I'm very hopeful that these decentralized trends and giving agency over to the overhead data to the user and empowering user is going to make it easier to enable use case at scale and minimize the all the overhead needed around it to that has been needed implementing payment networks and other networks to make it work at scale. So I'm bullish, I've been at it for quite some time and will continue to make it happen. And I think as well that the focusing on the users is absolutely important. If you have a very good and sleek user experience, then it works.
If it's hard to do and you are trying to make too much friction, then this is where things start to go sideways because users or service provider will find a way to deliver the services or the user to access it by taking some work around. And this is where the risk are happening. So let's not forget about the user experience, put the user at the centers and make sure it's a delightful experience.
Ramesh, we have heard in the previous panel about ATAR and you know, what has happened in India and India I think is probably the country that is credited to have invented digital public infrastructure. Ssip is trying to bring that fire to other countries outside of, of India. Are you quote unquote just looking to enable countries to develop their own national solutions. Are you also interested to ensure that countries will be able to work, you know, bridging borders and, and doing this on a, on a international basis? That's very much on the agenda.
In fact, interestingly in Africa there is a free trade agreement across the entire African Union in West Africa where we have a lot of our customers, we have a COAs, which is all about free trade and free movement. They want to use their national ID card issued in their country to be able to cross borders, access services in other countries and so on. And similar conversations are there in the Caribbean islands also where we are working. So it is very much a part of what we are trying to do. Interoperability, working across borders is important.
What we are trying to do is bring through the platform a consistent user experience as well as the underlying trust that is required for actual transactions to really happen. And establishing that I think is very important. I also agree with Marie when she said we need the, the standards and the laws and the processes in place and I think that's gonna be one of the areas that we all have to work together. The developing world does not have the luxury of doing what the European Union is doing, doing a three year or five year exercise and then doing it so they don't have the kind of budget.
So they have to be very opinionated, make some choices, implement and start reaping the benefits. So in that process we are trying to make sure that they're not making choices which are gonna lock them out eventually. So that's why there's a huge push on working with standards from our side.
Yeah, you know, I really recommend having a conversation if you can grab Ramesh afterwards because he and his colleagues at Mo Baras are keeping us honest at the open wallet foundation also, you know, when we are having conversations about zero knowledge proofs and advanced biometrics and then Ramesh would say something like, well what do you do if the only thing you have is a piece of paper with a QR code or a feature phone that is shared by a family of 12? So I I I really appreciate that Franklin, you are not just at TD Bank but also at at interact, you're working on a national scheme.
I think I remember a, a video conference that we had that we discussed our battle scars in trying to put consortia together and Mathias actually told me that you might have a more glass half empty view today for us. What's your, what's your your view on, on cross border interoperability? It's very difficult.
So, so we, we have been building this scheme, the solution, the scheme interact that did, referred to this was, this was private sector led, this was banks coming together and agreeing to building a scheme. You know, in Europe there is an equivalent, it's a bit like bank id. So coming together, creating a scheme, agreeing on, on standard, but also on technology contracting and building the scheme and launching it. It's quite successful. There's over 5 million users, which at the scale of Canada is quite good.
But that is, that is difficult and I think the private sector can take it to some, some level. It is not interoperable, it is not crossing the border, even in Canada, it's not the only scheme and the, the world remains very fragmented. I feel what's missing is the, is a bit of a, a government layer to it and is it, you know, how does it connect to the foundational pieces of sources of identity? How does it cross borders and, and without the government it's difficult. And so I feel what the piece we have been missing in that that scheme is a, is a global standard, is a cross border standard.
And that's why Daniel, when we speak I'm, my, my glass becomes half empty because I'm hopeful that the efforts of the open wide foundation and efforts that you folks are doing right now, including what the, the European Union is doing actually may contribute to getting to a, a global standard or a standard that can be used across and then interoperability would be easier. I think it's very difficult for local jurisdictions to, to achieve it. The conversely a a pure government-led effort is also very difficult.
And we see that there's been a lot of chats in Canada about decentralized identity verified credentials and, and often what gets forgotten is what Didier was pointing out. It's the consumer, the customer, it becomes a, a concept very nicely designed, often too complex, but losing sight of the economic reality and losing sight of what consumers actually want. And so I think the happy medium is a strong standard simple and, and local schemes that can carry the flag. Thank you. We see a clock that is blinking but we can ignore it safely. We're sticking to the original plan. Right. Okay.
More minutes. Perfect. Maybe I just take that opportunity though. So when I look at that computer, I don't check my LinkedIn threat but I look whether there are questions. If you have questions to the audience, please add them to the app and I can hand them over to Daniel or I just ask them, this should be interactive so if you have questions they will arrive here, I will check them and I will hand them over.
Yeah, please do take advantage. This is not a YouTube video. You can make it interactive with your, with your questions and really please, please do. So.
You know, a lot of you have mentioned that we should, we need to put the customer in the center and I think, you know, there will be a couple of, there will be regulatory challenges and technical challenges, but ultimately maybe the key challenge is to ensure that customers want this. Marie, you are also, in addition to being at, at Visa, you're also part of one of the large scale pilots and you're looking at concrete use cases.
What are the, the use cases and maybe specifically are there some cross-border use cases or use cases that you think will benefit from international interoperability that you see as part of your experience at at Visa or at the EWC? Yeah, so, so we are involved in the EWC large scale pilots focused around travel payment and organizational identity. The kind of use cases we are looking at there are related of course to travel and cross border advanced passenger information.
Whether you want to book an book, a airline, book a flight, sharing your identity credentials with the hotel when you're checking in, trying to get the border authorities involved was a little bit difficult. So you know, that's, we had to put that one on hold for on the payment side we are looking at how you use your EUID wallet to authenticate a payment transaction as well as to initiate a payment and then for organizational entity it's around onboarding a new supplier and, and a few other use cases, internet domain registration and so forth.
I think payment is expected, hoped to be one of those frequent use cases that will drive consumer adoption, that will help the consumers to see yep, there's something in this For me, there's not that often you log into government service or you do your tax return or indeed even open a bank account, which is also expected how great benefits were. So that is one of those frequent use cases. I don't think that we've found the silver bullet yet to be honest.
We, we, we see how we can make the, the user experience for payment authentication and for payment initiation good and we can have more flexibility around the payment credentials and how the authentication is done to improve the user experience and to have a kind of a richer set of, of payment opportunities. You, you know, being able to hold a payment credential or token in your wallet and using that in store to payment is not possible and so forth.
But still, I think that there is in fact more work to be done on these use cases and I'm really not sure that there's going to be one use case that's going to, you know, save them all kind of thing. As we are looking around on the, I think my last point is that as we are looking around on the existing identity system, you take the bank IDs and the, its me and, and and so forth, it's, and in France as well or numeric it's each country have a different use case that was really driving adoption.
So during the time in the pandemic it was, you wanna go to the restaurant, you need a covid pass to get the covid pass, you need a digital identity, great. Then that was the use case that that doubled the customer base at that point in time in that setting, which is why I think coming back to a previous point I had about this collaboration public and as as a public private partnership, there will be situations where the government say you must do this and then that could drive the demand for, for getting the adoption for the consumers.
And of course by the government trusting the wallets, private sector, public sector, it means that the consumers can trust them as well. So I think the use cases will vary by country. It must bring convenience to the consumer for sure. And I think that there needs to be a collaboration with the government that they are eating their own dog food, drinking their own champagne, those kind of things as well.
So yeah, So pritt, if you had the magic button and you could enable one use case on a global basis, any, any contender Kind of difficult to think of that, but definitely I think for me, I think the magic button is, I think like if, if I have to give, give the example with, with Bhutan was probably we, we didn't, we didn't debate or deliberate much on lot of details of what happens if this goes wrong, what happened if that that goes wrong.
Probably we like the philosophy of being decentralized, we like the philosophy of empowering user with their own identity and then we work towards developing a product and a platform to give that that rights to the user. And now as we have onboarded people, as we have developed use cases, we know there is going to be challenges. We know there is going to be problems. I think we, we take it one by one and try to resolve it and, and find a solution for it.
But I think if we just keep, like especially for Bhutan being a very small economy, we can't effort to keep debating and doing large scale pilots. I think we don't have fun for that. So we just started, we with a very small scale pro like kind of deployment of the product, tested out a few users and now we have rolled out and I think, I think probably if, if there are especially if, if if not eu, if there are countries outside EU who wants to actually take the rigs, I think I would say you could press that button and go and implement the decentralized idea.
I think that should be good for you. What are you most excited about DDA? Is there any any use case that you think is going to be the carrier rocket?
Yeah, I, I don't know how long it'll take, but you know, in my personal experience, you know, I think we saw already a lot of evolution on having the ability to reuse credential or step that you did privately, but it's still limited to a given ecosystem or a given app. So for me the ultimate benefit of decentralization is not creating a silo of wallet but it's allowing me to reuse across as well. So reusability across is the ultimate end game and reusability of not just identity, but I want to have different persona.
It's, it's contextual as well. So how do you enable that without overwhelming me? So I'm a true believer that at some point we will have in our pocket working for you, your own personal assistant that is able to understand the context and manage your data and be able to reuse an event that you did somewhere, somewhere else in the proper context without over, over overwhelming me with too many question. So I'd like to have that in my pocket 24 7 and even sometime I'm okay for my personal assistant to act on my behalf.
You asked me the question two times, I was okay to share my passport detail when I bought a British airway flight. Why don't you remember that for me for the next six months? But I want to have agency on that decision. I don't want somebody else to take it for me. So I think once we move into a, a personal assistance attached to my data with contextual decision being made for me on other point of decision, then it's really going to help me out a lot.
And I think with AI advancement we are starting to see this notion, those notion of personal ai, decentralized identity, I'm having control over my data, help me take a decision versus clicking yes on the cookies because I don't want to read. All of that is going to be very transformational for user interaction and we are not that far from making that happen.
Ramesh, you are active in many countries. Do you see, basically there is this killer use case in every country, at least across Africa or other different customer needs and it it's really a country by country thing. I think it depends on what their priorities are, but largely the theme is government to people, benefits delivery, social protection use cases are very high. And in conversations with agencies like U UN, HCR, I can imagine there are people actually using the IDs tens of times a day for different service access.
So I, I would say that social protection would be a large driver. I also see payments being the single largest use case after that I see access control keys passes, those kind of cases being frequent usage drivers. But storage and presentation of educational works skill credentials is also something that's seeing a lot of interest. So we are already working on a couple of university with a couple of universities to issue credentials and store them in wallets and apply for jobs using these credentials.
So these kind of cases are some things that we are seeing in action, but the single largest driver for us is the social protection case. Franklin, have you come across anything with interact and the, the Canadian scheme where people said, oh, I wished I could use that in the US for instance when I, when I crossed the border, I wish I could use that in the US the the cross border is, is a very high bar.
I, I feel, you know, if you ask what's my magic button, what would I do? It is that it is, as a bank in Canada, we have a lot of immigrants every year we onboard a lot of new customers who come from different countries and KYC you know, your customer identity verification is very difficult.
It's, it's very difficult to cross border, you know, it's almost impossible digitally, if we could solve the, the, the standard, the technical limitations, we will also have a regulatory issue. As a bank, our regulators need to recognize other country's identity in a digital format.
So they, there's a lot of issues here. I feel I'm I'm going where Rames is going, which is for these services to become ubiquitous and, and actively engaged.
It, to me it's, it's not identity on its own. It's too hard and a very high bar, but it's identity traveling with payments and with data. And when you start to have identity payments and data flowing together, this is in, in our, in my view this is the, the blood of financial services. This is what powers financial services and countries who mastered the three together have a high usage and it really helps financial services function smoothly. So I'm hoping for Canada, I'm hoping we will develop that.
I'm hoping the US market would develop that and then down the road we become a interoperable. Right. We have one question from the audience and I think I like that very much 'cause the title of the panelists Bridging Borders, but from the, what we've seen and from the discussion for the first 20 minutes or so, and also in general, we see that, that governments want to reinforce borders rather than bridging them. At least it feels sometimes like this. So how can we reconcile these perspective?
And maybe to add from my side, I'm a you citizen and I enjoy using this she treaty to, to enter a plane in Frankfurt without showing my passport. I travel to Barcelona, I leave the airport without showing my passport and then I show my passport at check-in and hotel. So the question is how that could we see such use case really cross border and really to the benefit of people and what can we as this group of people do for that Who wants to answer? I can give a, I can give an initial answer and I'm sure that there's many of who would like to compliment and in order.
So within, at least within the EU, I can see a future where you can take your EU ID wallet, it should, you know, got the pit from Spain and you can take it to Germany and it'll be accepted. I think in order to get beyond those borders, we, we really have to start looking at where, in what forum, how do we get the, the mutual acceptance and then the what circumstances is my digital identity accepted for a hotel in a different country where, which entities will agree on that mutual acceptance, that mutual mutual acceptance. What standards will be then choose.
So the commission has made certain choices in the a r re and so forth that we are, many of us are actively working to improve. Is that going to be the global standard? I'm not sure, but it's a big question in my mind. Where does these agreements take place? Is that in the OICD? Is that in the un I mean the ITU that, that we know about now? Or is it in standard organizations? And this probably is a bit of both, but I think in order to solve that problem there needs to be a deliberate effort. And that's not just the eu, although that's creating a certain sense of direction.
You know, we talked about yesterday, I think, and I mentioned you meant that we mentioned the commitment phobia. I thought that was a lovely, you know, expression. The EU said this is it, this is what we're doing for now, right? So where do we get the similar statements and and agreement from other countries? And this is where I think the US is extremely important. Of course it's a bit to avoid there and, and all the countries, but where is that forum?
What are the standards organizations, what are the, you know, acceptance to, to mutually recognize a digital identity from one country to another? Or is that bilateral? And then we'll take some time. So I think it's a good questions but hard to answer. True. I just like to add to the conversation.
So we, we have a big challenge in front of us, which is that wallets can be really disruptive and if businesses have to start accepting wallets or credentials there to change the ways they work, they'll change the tools they work and they don't know whether they're good, they can trust them or not. So it's a matter of awareness and education and policy to drive towards that. The benefits that can be reaped are really high. We can bring down costs, we can bring down friction, make life really easy, but, but a lot of businesses are gonna have to change the way they operate.
And I think that changing that is the real challenge that we're gonna have. If I, if I can interject, I'd like to highlight what like Mary was commencing on the, on standards across the world and EU developing a standard. The the world of standards is fascinating because it is the underlying rail for any interoperable system.
And yes, we will need governance to want it as well, but standards is the key and, and it will, it will go a long way if you could have a global standard. The US is a very interesting market where there is no common standard. There's a lot of initiatives, lots of voices are talking about the standard NICE is trying to develop a a view. It seems that the mobile driver's license is becoming a defacto standard, mostly driven by the private sector. Actually I think the world has an opportunity here in that Europe as a, as I think Europe has an opportunity to change the world over.
Europe has a very programmatic top down approach to developing a standard at scale that works for many jurisdictions. If that standard is well done and, and in a open way done in a way that can be adopted by the rest of the world, I think the standard has a shot at becoming a, a global standard and that would be quite powerful. And it's been done before today most components of our mobile phones across the world actually are based on a European standard that was developed a long time ago.
So I I, you know, when I think of the world of standard, I think Europe has a, is is doing something very interesting at the moment. And, and I hope you folks will serve us in the North America to have a, a common standard.
Didier, I think you have 70 seconds for the closing. Yeah, so no, I think we should as as well going, coming back to the user, let's not underestimate the power of the user. And I know that in many situation we try to plan standard and governance and everything to plan for the war, but I think the key to the adoption is, you know, empowering, very simple use case where a user will demand for it. If you mentioned the, the example of the hotel, they're asking for my passport. In some country the hotel have to do that.
In many situation they don't, but they do it because it was the only way they had. If all a sudden the, you know, the hotel chain provider starting to focus more on the user and on delightful experience and it's starting to happen where I could show the cures, scan a qr, provide my information in the privacy preserving manner so they can do the check, check-in and comply with whatever requirement they have, which very often are much less than what they are collecting right now. Guess what? Next time I will use that hotel chain versus another one.
So if we start focusing on making the experience much better for a user that will drive benefit for the relaying party for the hotel and we would start changing habits. So I would say again, delight the user and they will push and force for the change. We have seen that happening in other industry as well. I think delight the user is a great closing statement.
That's, thank you very much to all my panelists and I think we have one more panel.