Panel | Real-World Examples of How Smart Wallets will Transform how we Navigate our Digital World

So, we have Marc Geer, Global Operations Director for Fragomen, an architect. We have Drummond Reed, we have Eric Scouten, you've just heard. We have Mario Wallace, Gabriel Marquie, I think you're French speaking.

So, and then we have Hosho Karasawa. Welcome to the stage.

And, well, the title of this panel would be Real-World Examples of How Smart Wallets will Transform how we Navigate the Digital World. So, the first trigger when hearing this is smart wallets.

So, I don't think, I'm not sure if that's the right description. So, there's actually some slides, supposedly. There's some slides that are supposed to be on the screen and then we have the questions here. All right.

Well, I haven't seen any. So, there's a problem.

So, well, let's then start to get each of you declare their involvement with wallets. So, let me start. I'll start.

So, I don't have slides, so I'm having to, you know, go ad lib it. But anyway, I wanted to start to be a little bit of a preamble before we start the discussion. And I'm thinking of I'm the amuse-bouche to this main course and it's going to be an amazing main course.

So, to stay with us. So, there was four opinions, although they're facts in my head, that I wanted to share with the audience before we start the conversation. And some of these are going to be obvious and some of them may not be so obvious.

So, the first thing I want to state, as I believe a fact, is the world is becoming more digital and the internet is fundamentally flawed. And by this I mean, as the world, as everything is becoming more digital, we're having to exchange more and more information as we interact with both digital services and physical services. And we're seeing that the boundaries between physical and digital is blurring.

So, as more and more data is being exchanged, we obviously need systems that ensure that our privacy is protected, that we only share the data we need, and that the data can flow freely when we want it to flow. And this is where the internet is fundamentally flawed at the moment, because as we all know, we're missing this trust layer.

So, this is the first thing that we're fundamentally looking to solve and that my panelists here with me are going to share with you how they're trying to solve these problems. The second fact that I wanted to state is that the person has to be at the center. There is no other way. When I talk to our clients about decentralization as a concept, a lot of the focus is on privacy preserving and empowering individuals and absolutely that goes without saying.

But there's also a really simple mathematical equation, which is as we have to exchange more and more data with more and more data endpoints, whether it's proving we are who we are when we're getting on a plane, to you know paying for something out with a retailer, to getting a visa, to verifying your passport, to getting your boarding pass, to as we do more and more of these things, the number of organizations that we're potentially interacting with and we're potentially exchanging some data with is becoming very large.

And if we are not at the center, if we are not the ones controlling that data exchange, we're going to have a spaghetti of potentially highly personal data flying around the place without our involvement, which I believe is completely impractical. Also aside from the fact that it's unacceptable for most privacy and privacy thinking people. The third point I wanted to point out is this is the exact reason why a decentralized world, which we all live in today, we all work around as individuals, you know it's a decentralized world, needs decentralized technology.

So we need to start to have more and more of the information about ourselves that we may need for these interactions in our hands, in our body, as we move around our world. And the other thing I would just call out here is the benefits for this type of agency. It's not just about individuals, this agency also is about organizations. I'm just going to give you a very very simple example. So we talk to development banks around the world and we look at how do we increase GDP for our countries, how do we make companies within our countries more productive.

And we also here during COVID, we also realized how brittle our supply chains were. The challenges today is if I'm an amazing coffee, I'm a big coffee fan, so if I'm an amazing coffee roasting company in Italy, and I'm a small company but I have an amazing product and I want to get into an international or global supply chain, I might want to get into a restaurant chain in the US. The effort of getting into a supply chain is fundamentally very often too high for me to bear as a small company and it's too high for the supply chain to bear from a legal, a regulatory, a risk standpoint.

So we've been talking to development banks and governments about just imagine if all of our companies were credentialized, everything about them that they needed to transact in business was credentialized, so they can now compete with anybody else in a global supply chain. So I think when we think about credentialized identity, we think about benefits for everybody, organizations and individuals. And the final thing is that value has to be realized by all participants. So value has to be realized by the data subject, the individual or the organization. It has to be realized by the data issuer.

It has to also be realized by the data consumer or the relying party and fundamentally the technology provider. So as we think about solving this problem, we have to think of everybody that's involved. And with that said, I'm now going to come back to my panel. I'm going to start asking some questions and unfortunately my eyesight isn't the best, so I'm going to have to put my glasses on.

Okay, so to start off, would each of you introduce yourselves by explaining what problem within the big space I've just described are you specifically working on and why you're passionate about it? I'm going to start with you here Hoshio beside me.

Okay, hi, so I'm Hoshio from NTT Digital. We're a relatively new company. NTT Digital is the CEO of the NTT Group, which is one of the largest tech conglomerates based in Japan. We have the country's largest telecom and we're the second largest data center provider as our group company. So talking about the trust, actually I think the trust is one of the topics today. We believe that as Mari shared, we're living in the digital world as digital is really evolving, like accelerating.

I think the importance of the data continues to grow, but yet I think a lot of compromise are made for a lot of the businesses and individuals. Always the transparency, the reliability and the quality and the controllability of the data is not there. We as an infrastructure provider, historically speaking, we have quite a long history building upon the trust, managing the physical infrastructure like telecommunications and data center. Now we aim to also provide this additional trust layer at the data level. So our vision for this company is we call it a free to trust.

So we think we try to, how should I say, free the business and individuals from the burden of the distrust and also give them a choice to decide, okay, whom to trust and what to trust. So that's what we're doing. As a product, actually a few months ago, we launched our digital wallet. It's a B2C wallet, but from the summer to fall this year, we're going to launch another product. We call it embedded wallet, which is the company can embed it into their own services so that company can manage tokenized identity money and objects within their existing services. So that's what we do.

So I've just spoken about the content authenticity, but I think really, when I think about the marketplace of public ideas, I hear from people in government and business in sports and entertainment, science, arts, and they're all sort of frustrated that they're losing connection with their audiences because the audiences don't know whether to trust the content that they're seeing from these sources is real. And so for me, this is about bringing audiences and content producers back into genuine contact with each other.

Hi, Drummond Reed from Director of Trust Services at Gen Digital. Gen is one of the world's largest consumer cybersecurity companies, touch about 500 million users around the world. They're used to using cybersecurity products today like antivirus or identity theft protection services to guard against the threats that we have out there today. But as you're hearing at this conference, the threats that are coming, especially AI powered threats, are going to require a whole new generation of tools.

And we see the digital wallet and digital credentials for proving not just your authenticity as an individual, but the things you're authorized to do, your digital reputation in many different contexts as the next major tool for consumer usage. So we are focused on producing that at the same level that you're used to using in your smartphone today, but based on free and open standards, that mean we really can have portability.

Yeah, good day. My name is Mark Geer. I'm with a law firm called Fragerman. We joke we're probably the largest law firm that nobody's ever heard about. We only play in the immigration space. And from our perspective, governments really care about a handful of things, who you are, how long you're coming for, what is the risk, and when are you leaving, right? And what are you going to be doing? That's really what they're after.

And so where we see playing in the space is really is to make the goal of the employer and the employee much easier and more seamless as they touch all those various touch points along the way, going from host country to a home country, from a home country to host country from an employment perspective. And we see the wallet, the verifiable credentials being a large part of the solution. We are at the moment running a number of POCs in this.

And as I said, at the end of the day, the goal is really to make the movement in the mobility space much easier and more compliant, both from a government, from an employee, and an employer perspective. So that's really where our focus is. So I'm Gabriel Marquier, working for IATA, the International Air Transport Association. So looking at business processes around airline operations. And just to give you an idea of the ecosystem we look after, we try to help operate better. It's around 500 airlines in the world, 200,000 travel agencies, and 4 billion travelers per year.

So it's actually quite a decentralized ecosystem and a quite large scale one. So I think that's why decentralized identity is actually a perfect match. And because we look at all the business processes around the entire business, we start to see quite, when we dice them up, quite a lot of use cases that can leverage digital ID. So there are quite a few around the passenger side of the business, around enabling travelers to use new tools in the shopping space. So that's pretty much in the exploration phase.

Now using digital identity tool to verify that you're good to travel and maybe use biometric processing. So that's in the pilot phase. And then when we look at the B2B use cases, actually it's the question is, how do you onboard faster your business partners? And once you've onboarded them, how can you keep verifying that they're indeed the one generating transactions? And that's where the organizational digital ID come into play. There is also a cargo side of the business.

And when we look across the board, there is aviation security with exchange of operating certificate produced by civil aviation authorities. So actually we see that even government actors start to be actively involved in the activities there. And so for me, what's fascinating around digital ID is that once you start to spin up solution for one use cases, then you're just one small step away from unlocking the next one. And it's quite crazy when you think about it. So we look at, okay, how do we reduce the risk of fraud and secure the transaction between travel agencies and airlines?

So we say, okay, great, travel agency is going to get a digital ID. But then it means that travel agencies can issue verifiable proof of order that can then be used to obtain a visa, that can then be used to check in. And it all comes together. So when you start from one angle, then you see that you eventually close the loop towards the use case. So that's really what I find wonderful about it. Yeah. And actually, we have one of the questions later talking about ecosystems, but I think that's a really good point.

I mean, I always joke that this is the gift that keeps them giving. Because as soon as you solve one problem, you find 15 other problems that you can solve with the same technology. So this is good.

So okay, let's do the next question. So the next question, okay, so we hear about the, okay, first one. So every session of this conference, many sessions, are filled with stories of the threats of AI, data breaches, identity fraud, and ransomware that are eroding online trust. So what specifically are you and your company doing to start to build that trust and help people feel safe as they navigate their digital worlds? And I'm going to start with you, Eric. Okay.

Again, what we're trying to do is to provide signals to give people an understanding of how they got the content that they are receiving and who produced it. And that's the core of the cog identity assertion that I talked about, is the who. And the rest of it is the how. So you should be able to view content and like the nutrition facts on, you know, the food that you eat, at least in the U.S., have some idea of what's in it, how it will affect you, and whether you should trust it or not.

And again, all of those are individual decisions. You might look, I might look at a nutrition fact and decide to eat something, and Marie might look at the same and decide not to. But it really is about allowing you to make informed decisions about what you're consuming when you're on the internet.

Perfect, thank you. Hosho, do you think?

Yeah, so talking about the trust, I think the safe, keep the safe safety of the users actually do a couple of things. So our wallets actually starting from the handling the tokens on the blockchain, we started from blockchain initially, but then we're not confined to blockchains forever. So we started from blockchain because there's a couple of reasons, including the maturity of the, you know, the market and technology.

So first of all, the wallets, you know, who's handling the tokens on the blockchain has a lot of problems, as you may know, that it's actually sacrificed the user experience, security, to prioritize decentralization and like the self-sovereignty. So which means that users need to manage everything by themselves, need to verify, identify the malicious transaction by themselves, and handle by themselves, which is quite challenging for a lot of the users.

We add a secure guardrails, adding the new additional layer of the policy layer on the blockchain to keep the user safe, like firewalls, spam filters, and key recoveries, which is quite common, you know, for the centralized application, but not the common in the decentralized world. So that's the first thing we do, but as the next step, we try to connect the tokens to the identity, as you may know, that we have a group company called Docomo, so we have 100 million users in Japan, which means it's 100 million IDs, most of them are KYC.

We try to make this ID, identity, talk to the tokenized money and object as the next step, and the user can handle all those, you know, maintain the controllability, and at the same time, I think a couple of the new experiences can be realized by linking the third-party data and the first-party data, that's the second thing we do.

But we're not limited to our own users, so as I mentioned, we are launching embedded wallets and support the enterprise, so we are also planning to connect to their IDs, identities, with those tokenized assets, so the user can have this freedom to navigate across the different companies. We made some announcements, like the company like Naoji, which is one of the largest browser-based mobile marketplace, and there's Sunrio, which is one of the biggest IP holders, I think everybody knows Harakiri, so we work with them, try to make what I described happen.

Third one, sorry to make it short, but as R&D, we also focus on the things called secret computing, so the concepts like this, company A, company B hold the data in each, you know, their own database, but today, if they want to use this, it's very challenging, right, because of a couple of reasons, so with this secret computing, we can encrypt all those data, and without decrypting that, do some calculations and analytics, so without, you know, sacrificing any, you know, the privacy of the user, but at the same time, I think it's not only about protecting users, when you protect a user, but also give the benefit back to the user is quite important, so that's what we're doing.

Thank you, and so Drummond. So, I'm a steering member of Trust for IP, where we, right from the outset, broke trust into the two components of the technical layer and the human layer, and obviously, the technical layer, what we need there is the interoperable protocols that the key technical innovation is driving that forward. I spent seven years of my life on decentralized identifiers.

That's how we really democratize that cryptography, and we just needed to work interoperably, and I think we've got a pretty good handle on that part, so the hard part is going to be the human layer of trust, and it's not because that's a hard thing for us to do. I mean, if I asked all of you, how hard is it for you to manage this tool that you've got for your identity, right?

I mean, it's right, but I love to tell this story, and I'm, you know, my wife always laughs. This digital wallet on this device, my wife had to teach me how to use. I'm kidding.

I mean, I'm not kidding. This double-click thing, our last trip to Europe, she started going around, and I'm going, how are you doing that?

All this, right, we don't, we didn't, at that time, do that in the U.S. She says, don't you know how to open your wallet on your phone without even, you know, and I'm like, no, it's double-click.

Oh, God. So, yeah, I mean, it's something that simple, so, but we're now going to get into highly contextual situations of, well, what are the exact credentials needed if I'm, you know, I want to cross the border. That's one thing. I just want to, you know, get a personalized subscription to a newsletter.

I mean, so we need to make that. That's going to be the hard part, and simplifying that user experience and making it part of our everyday lives, that's a key thing we're going to be focused on for the consumer wallet.

Yeah, the hard part isn't the technology. There's always a lovely quote from, I'm a physicist, and Richard Feynman, one of the greatest physicists, one of the greatest teachers, and he always said, in my next life, I'm going to come back and do something really difficult, like be a project manager.

So, the people are the hard part, so I totally agree. So, Mark, if you can quickly give us that.

Yeah, sure. So, based upon what we do, I mean, we hold massive amounts of PII.

So, data security, data privacy is sort of part of our DNA. So, we have major teams within the firm under the chairman making sure that, you know, we do anything that's, everything and anything that's possible to protect, to protect all of our PII.

So, we're constantly looking at other ways of making sure that we get secure transfer of data, whatever that may be. Obviously, the verifiable credential space is, and as you know, I mean, we're investing heavily in that, right?

You know, if we have a look at any type of application that we process, the amount of documents that go into supporting of that application, the data points that we need from that, and things like the verifiable credentials are going to go a long way in terms of trusting the data that we get and also making it easier, both from an employee and an employee perspective, but as well as from our own team's perspective in terms of processing that, of processing that data.

And at the end of the day, as I said earlier, the goal is to make the actual, the movement of that employer from, the employee from point A to point B as seamless and as smooth as possible, right? And, you know, we see, you know, with the, you know, with the, you know, with this, the selective disclosure, right, and all the GDPR, our ability to only extract that information, which we need for the processing of the cases is paramount.

And, you know, our data privacy guys are all over us if we ask for, you know, your favorite football team or your favorite color, because there's no need to ask for that. So, as I said, it's a very big part of the firm. We're investing very heavily in it.

And, you know, we just, one of those, where, as I said, you know, somebody once joked that we should turn our systems into a dating site because we know so much about so many different people, where they are, where they've lived, etc. But all jokes aside, it is, it is one of the most fundamental components of our firm is protecting the PII.

So, anything that we can do to protect that and securely transmit that data is something which we're going to invest in and explore. So, when we, I've got to run to the next question.

So, when we opened together the panel, it was really first, you know, Gabrielle and Mark, we specifically wanted to bring those in because the rest of us are techies. Because the reason is, is technology is only there to make our lives easier. When we talk about a digital world, we mean making life easier for all of us. And pretty much all of us are, at some point in our life, are a traveler or a worker, which is the use cases that the guys are living and breathing every day.

So, my next question is specifically to Gabrielle and Mark. We hear about the promise that digital wallets will bring, that they will bring us these new and improved user experiences that are safer and more streamlined.

So, how is this materializing in your specific sector? And I'll start, Gabrielle, with you.

So, maybe starting with the basics before we arrive to the clever stuff. So, I'm sure most of you flew over here.

So, you had to type in your passport details somewhere or your ID card detail. And actually, all of this is because government asked airlines to collect passport detail, ID detail of everybody and send it through.

So, first, I mean, like in the age of peer-to-peer and trend encrypted communications, that sounds a bit like madness that you've got someone that needs to broker the PII of 4 billion people per year or a group of organizations. So, eventually, I hope just to get the basic right that someday government will accept directly information to be provided to them by the travelers.

But before we get there, still within the current requirement for the airline to collect this data, there is already value if you can, well, don't have to look for your passport and type it in and do a typo and then have it corrected at checking time at the airport. So, just having automatically populated data, verifiable data is already a massive step forward because if airline transports someone they shouldn't transport, then you get denied entry at the border and they've got to fly you back.

So, yeah, already a good step. And then if we start to be creative from there and that's where we can look maybe a bit more at the shopping side of things, if you have a digital ID for border processes and all of this, then you can start using it elsewhere.

So, the first thing is, well, if you are an employee of a given company or have special deals with an airline because of your age or because of certain legal requirements, then today these don't get sold in any channel because they need to be able to verify that you are who you say you are, that you are entitled for that discount. And actually with verifiable credentials, then I can prove that what I'm entitled to through any channel.

So, there is already a promise of making the shopping experience better for travelers and for airline to distribute their content more widely. Then in the payment space, so there is a, let's say, a use case around travel. If your flight gets cancelled, it's too delayed, then you've got refund or compensations. And then in some of these use cases the question is, well, we want to refund you, we need to refund you, please send us the detail for us to refund you.

I mean, it would be much simpler if at the time of payment you can share your preferred refund option. So, just one click authorization of payment and preferred refund option. And then if we get a bit more forward looking, then we've got instant proof of lifetime customer value. If I'm a leisure traveler, I share all my travel history, I share my proof of entitlement that shows that in other contexts I'm also a business traveler and then the airline can return me a better targeted offer.

And when we get into the smart side of things, the question is, okay, I've got an agent that I say, hey, please book me a flight to go to London next week. But then as an airline, how do I know it's a human and it's a given person behind that transaction and not just a bot web scraping for fares and to know all the price points?

So, actually, when we get even further, we see that there is a need to integrate agents and the way to prove our identity to be able to truly achieve the smart agent part of the equation. So, yeah, so just a few thoughts before we get to the end use case. I think we've got plenty of baby steps that we can take on the way, but we look forward to seeing. Thank you.

And Mark, please. Yes, from our perspective, we sort of see the adoption of the digital wallet as the beginning of the decentralized data model, right? And we're seeing governments are actually looking for solutions, right? And I'll build on what Gabriel said here in a moment, but I was recently at a conference where the big topic was the fraud around the A1 certificates, right? And from one particular member state moving third country nationals to another, the big issue was the acceptance of that home country A1 certificate because of the fraud, right?

So, they're crying out for solutions in terms of how do we solve this? And the right answer around that is a verified credential around the A1 certificate. Let the government issue it, whoever issues it. Let it go into your digital wallet or your smart wallet and let that be presented once requested, and that will solve some of that. It seems very simple, but just working with governments to get those adopted.

Another example, and I'll get to something where we're sort of working together later, but if we look at the posted worker notification, which we've got a proof of concept running on that right now, when that director first came out, the fines for noncompliance would be leveled at the employing or the sending entity, right? So, I was person A going from country A to country B. If I was noncompliant in country B, the way it was supposed to work is that the fines would be leveled against my employer in my home country.

Now, what you've got is about 10 states have now recognized the need for joint liability, right? In other words, the inspectors are saying, I'm no longer going to go after your employer. I'm actually going to go after your client in the host country or your office in the host country to level the fine for noncompliance, right?

So, it's this need to have an ability not only to issue the verifiable credential for, for example, a posted worker, but the ability to verify that in the host location. And these are real challenges. This conference that I was at, the primary pain points for them were A1 certificates and posted worker notification. I think another part just to mention and just to dovetail, and I think this is where it's important to Gabriel's point in terms of understanding the end-to-end spectrum or the end-to-end experience of the traveler, right?

And those of you who've checked in, and just correct me if I'm wrong, but those of you who've checked in at the airport and you check on the screen, it says, do you have a visa? That's the thematic API, which is owned by IATA, right? And what you'll find, and this is a real example, in a marine and offshore environment in Brazil, we had a, you know, there's a Philippine national subsea welder. And according, nothing wrong with the thematic data, but in order to get that individual to Brazil, they were allowed to enter correctly, so using the Siemens documentation, right?

However, the vessel was a Brazilian flagged vessel, so the IATA component got them all the way to Brazil, but they can't board the vessel because it's a Brazilian flagged vessel and they actually need a work authorization. So the dovetailing of our two firms, right, in terms of providing that seamless end-to-end service is so critical.

I mean, not such a bad thing having to spend two weeks in Rio, but that wasn't the purpose of actually going to Brazil in the first place. So it's really about making sure that we can join a lot of these various proofs of concepts, a lot of these initiatives, a lot of these pilots, to make sure that the movement of individuals from point A to point B is seamlessly achieved, and the verifiable credentials are such a huge part of making that all happen.

And that's actually a perfect dovetail, actually, to the ecosystem question, because centralization works when, you know, the issue is also the verifier, but when you want to start, use your identity or use your passport or use your proof of education for multiple different use cases across multiple different touch points, it becomes a different story. So my next question is, so when I talk with clients, they do get really excited about the potential of the wallet, but they have all kinds of questions about adoption.

My experience so far has been that adoption is driven ecosystem by ecosystem and connecting of ecosystems, so acceptance across ecosystems. So what is your experience, and what are you doing to drive adoption? And I'm going to start with Drummond. I'm glad you used the term acceptance, Marie. If anyone who saw Andy Tobin's great, you know, the wallet olympics that he does is, and he suggested why aren't we working on a global acceptance network for verifiable credentials.

It's interesting, just listening to this panel, I'm thinking about how many of these credentials that I use every day right now actually fit that first description of, I only use that credential with the issuer, right? I've just been sitting here looking at this thinking, almost never, right? All these credentials designed to be used in other places, right? The credit cards, especially, I use them all over the world, but how often do I use my credit card in my bank, right? I don't.

So we have to solve that same problem now for verifiable credentials, and it is going to have to be an ecosystem of ecosystems, and so I'm actually going to answer this question by tossing it. Anyone in the audience in the conference here who wants to talk about how we're going to solve that problem, please seek me out, or a handful of us here that are on this panel that think we need to solve that problem together by connecting the ecosystems.

Thank you, Drummond. So Eric.

For us, I think a lot of that is around education, right? When I talk to people outside of this community, even technical people who aren't identity experts, you talk about verifiable credentials, you talk about wallets, and you get blank stares, and so I think a significant part of it is going to be starting to show people what these really look like, how you get them, and are you ready to use them, much like Drummond's comment about using the payment wallet on his phone. So I think we're still at that stage where education needs to be a critical part of it.

The other piece for us, and this is now turning to the technical people in this room, is that interoperability is a big challenge for us. Every time that we constrain the choices that relying parties have to make for their convenience, we make it much more difficult for the issuers to sort of fit that narrow mold that we're choosing. I think there's a lot of work to be done to figure out how do we make a common choice that a wide variety of issuers and a wide variety of relying parties can implement without overwhelming either side. And so finally, I think, sorry one second, Gabriel.

So in terms of interoperability and making things work, actually I've been digging the storybook because planes have been flying for quite some time before the internet, and actually I realized that one of the key standards that was developed under the IATA passenger service conference governance was interline reservation messages. And if you put it in the context of today, basically it's an acceptance network of reservation requests by travel agencies to airlines.

So all that to say that around the air travel ecosystem, airlines are already quite well familiar about setting up standards under a governance framework and the need to engage government entities to achieve operational setups that are also practical and compliant with the regulations. So in practice, what does it mean is that members of the airline come together, agree on the value proposition of addressing a certain challenge up front, and from there go and dig business requirements, target business process, and from there develop the necessary data models.

We've put it in terms of here, verifiable credential schema and interoperability profile for things to work at scale in the industry. So indeed that works well, and for us that are working like deep down in the technology, we've been working on it for four years and everything seems obvious, but we realize that when we start to articulate the value proposition beyond the people that are actually working on it, it just flies over the head.

So another tool that we use are end-to-end proof of concept to showcase future use case, past use case, and also one key point as we're discussing, for things to work you need to have use case being able to piggyback on each other. So one point we adamant on is that wallet solution ecosystem needs to be open. We need to have people to be able to issue across the ecosystem, to verify across the ecosystem, otherwise I think that was one of the points yesterday. Wallet is a new silo and that's no good, so really much in terms of achieving what we want.

Yeah and one thing I would just call out, so I don't know if you're familiar, if you're not familiar with the IATA PLCs that they run, you should because they're very interesting, but in some of the early ones it was a lot of border, but the recent ones I've been I think are really exciting because they really look at the whole end-to-end travel experience, what I think is what it's all about, it's everything, so I think people should really take a look, it's interesting because everything from booking your travel, to getting to the airport, to going through the airport, to looking at the retail, to hotels, so it's a really nice way of looking at the whole experience, the same as Mark talked about, it's the whole worker experience end-to-end or the traveler experience, so I think that's a really nice way of looking at it.

So just the final wrap-up, this is a question for everybody, so we only have five minutes left, so to wrap up, if you could all share just one thing that you'd like the audience to go away with, and we'll start here with Hoshio.

Okay, maybe since you didn't ask me to talk about adoption, I think network, definitely we're also part of the GAN, the Global Acceptance Network, because it also should be part of the ecosystem network, so we started some activities, first of all in Japan, we called it Web3 Jump, so it's like now it's 40 major companies joined that, I'm surprised by the number, because only we started like two months, we see that the decentralized infrastructure is a giant CRM, and so it's a new way for companies to work together, to change the way they engage with customers, so we started from Japan, but I think by the end of this year, we tried to increase the number of the company to 100, and also extend outside Japan, and so maybe that could also connect to the GAN in the near future.

The second thing I believe, I'm truly a believer of the, when we talk about adoption, the brownfield is quite important for me, because there's a lot of failure in the past, also in Japan, we have like things like called information banking, which we try to move everything from A to B, it's like a very greenfield approach, which is not quite successful, because you can never expect to change the regular maths, the behavior sometimes, you need to embed the experience into that, so then since I'm from the telecom industry, I'm having a very interesting discussion with our R&D guy, from the middle, medium to long term, that we think maybe, think about like in the 6G era, I know everybody's satisfied with 5G, but there's things called 6G, in the 6G era, maybe you don't need a SIM card anymore, you use a VC, a verifiable credential, as a way you connect to the network, which is like tokenized, for example, the price plan that you can show, you can send a gift to your friends, or maybe if you have half unused, you can like sell that to the somebody else, I think that's the true, how should I say, really brownfield approach, because it will deeply integrate that into the order in the telecom service, this is still some, you know, like high-level discussion, I'm not saying we're doing that, but just to give you an example, how we make this brownfield approach to expand to the mass adoption.

Yeah, I think obviously, because there's a lot of people in telcos, it's easy, the adoption is interesting, so Eric.

So I've already talked about interoperability, but one other thing that I want to take people to take home is the lifetime of identity, so one of the challenges we face is, I might produce a piece of content today, and you might come across it a decade from now, how are we sure that the credentials that I've used today are still comprehensible by you, technically, tomorrow, and maybe they change, you know, maybe I change my name, or some other thing happens, how do we have that also follow me over time? Those are one of the interesting challenges that we're facing.

Go ahead, Drummond. Interoperability, interoperability, interoperability, it's, the bottom line is, we have to get really, we've been through the innovation stage, we have a lot of choices out there, now we have to go through the hard work of how are we actually going to connect ecosystem to ecosystem to start to derive the exponential value.

Ladies, gentlemen, I give you the internet, look what it's made possible, if we're going to have the internet of trust, we got to solve the same problem. Yeah, so from a fragment perspective, our goal obviously is to streamline the mobility process, right?

We're running a number of proofs of concept, actually combining the gen AI side of it with the digital identity, digital wallet, verifiable credentials, because really the goal here is to take the mystery out of the process, right, and be able to be very informative and let people understand exactly why they're providing certain piece of information for what component of their process, and at the end of the day, passing them back something in a secure way that's trustworthy, that's verifiable, and allows them, as I said, to move from point A to point B, so that's where we're at.

Yeah, and maybe just to add to Dwayne, so beyond interoperability is open ecosystem, open ecosystem, open ecosystem, so things only have value if you can use them as, well, the more you use them, the more they have value, so if we do close ecosystem, it will have limited value, so really, so I hope I've also given you a taste of the potential of the use case in the AI industry, the scales of decentralization, the existence of government's framework, so if you're interested, feel free to reach out, especially if you provide open wallets.

Yeah, and I would say that's for everybody, and if I was just going to say one thing, I want to say it's data utility, so that's my big buzzword, data utility.

I come from the AI space, and in AI, we talk about data effluents, so that's the data that you use, but you don't actually value it because it's not the end point, but the data can be super valuable to somebody else, so we should think of every piece of data is valuable to somebody, and we want to give individual utility over all their data, so that's my message for today, so thank you, everybody, for joining us for this, and look forward to talking to you again.