So the idea in this session is to talk about the business models and really understanding, you know, in the last session, we talked a bit about the future. You know, what it might look like, what some of those models are. Well, we all know where we are right now, and then we've seen the future. And part of the question we want to start talking about in this session is how do we get from where we are to those future scenarios that have those desirable features? And so one of the issues that we wanted to talk about in that context was understanding that if there's economic benefit, if there's not just monetary benefit, but if there's value to various parties that are involved various stakeholders, then you're, the system itself will be more of a self engaged. It will generate its own energy. And so part of what we wanted to explore in this part was the idea of what some of those value propositions might look like. So we have some wonderful folks who are gonna present and let them each introduce themselves as, as we go forward. I think Marcel, you're gonna go first. Is that okay? Great. And then also want to encourage people, think about questions, ask questions. You wanna make this very interactive in the session. So we're not gonna have a lot of chalk and talk. Not a lot of presentations wanna have a lot of discussions. So these are really meant to be provocative introductory remarks. And so Marcel, please introduce yourself and take it away. Thanks so much. Okay.
I will introduce myself with, with a few slides. My, my name is Marcel founder of P foundation. And to inspire you have a, this is a short movie to, well also to, to get after this coffee break. So
No one would've believed in the first years of the 21st century that human affairs were being watched from the timeless worlds of the worldwide web. No one could dreamed people were being scrutinized as someone, the microscope creatures in for centuries, you have seen me as nothing but a target audience distracting me with your fancy bells and whistles. Today. You tried a profile feeding on my social media audience and other wet trails, but actually all you do is look at little pieces of my life, scattered all around the worldwide web and with no place of my own. You must realize you are never going to know who I am. You're never going to find the things I really want. Simply for one reason, I don't exist in, do you really want to know who I am? Do you really want to know what I want? Let me tell you, I want my data to flow freely to be controlled only by me. I want a place that knows all about me even more than you will ever need to know a place in a social network. That's truly mine and where my privacy is respected a place that connects me with the source of my data. So I can use, share and do smart things with it with a high level of assurance and trust
For me, for my friends and for connected parties. I don't mind sharing my desires and wishes with you as long as we can have an equal and meaningful relationship.
Okay. That is a, that is a piece of inspiration and actually where it's all about, want to inspire you with is that we need to be in control personal data. And I think we heard that before today. And actually we're the permission of key is about, is to, to build this trust connection between two nodes as we call it. So between you and me, because it's about the trust between you and me and if, and if we can make a trust connection, then this trust connection can be used for whatever we can think of in the, in the digital world. So based the vision of the, the, the key foundation is to, to put back this human dimension in the, in the digital world and to, to build an ecosystem build on, on open standards in the combination with, with rules and regulations, to deal with that.
And actually what we see here is, is the world. As we know the world today, with all the, the institutions, the companies with the, with the, the internet layer and with the, the worldwide web. And today we, we, we all know this push and we all know the hassle with many user and passwords and all the, the trouble we see today. And what we think is that we should go to another layer, literally another layer. And we should go to a trust layer, a virtual layer, which gives you and me our own node, our own place on this trust layer. And the, the interesting thing of, of this, this, this place is that this place is actually my own API place. So from here, I can have connection with data, which is about me. I don't have to, to have it. It's about the access.
So when I have access to my, my data, I'm able to manage it because smart apps can run on my, through a personal AP on my personal place, and I can manage it, but I can also give it to someone else. And this is an interesting principle because when I can have my, my data, like, like my, my salary living somewhere, and someone else wants to give me a loan and wants to know if I'm good for this money. I'm the one who can manage that. You may have my salary and you don't have to control it. Talking about business models. Well, you, you feel it coming because what's happening today, is that controlling all the data and all the control processes. Are you the one you say you are, is this your date of birth? Is this the money you earn all this kind of shit costs the economy, lots of money, which can be taken away by an extra layer in our digital world.
We made another very short movie, which explains it very much foster than, than I do. And I'll show it to you because when you entered the room, you, you saw this one and what we, what we are doing today. And it's nice to, to talk to you about it is that we, we, with a lot of public and private parties, we are building this skiing, this open public scheme for the interoperable exchange of data. And it has to be interoperable with all kind of other initiatives presented to you today. And the nice thing is that all these parties, they had the problem to tell at home, okay, when we are working in work groups, how do you tell something like what we are doing? Because people can understand to be a part of the digital world to be in note in egg system, because normally you are not part of the, the, the digital world. You have an account, but you are nothing in, in this world of today. The movie I show you is made by those parties to explain, to try to explain. So you may judge, if we are, if we succeeded in this one,
The customer is king, but he's also your worst nightmare in order to be relevant to him. You want to know as much as possible about him, but collecting and verifying data is expensive and time consuming. The client drops out because he needs to create a account everywhere and must fill in the same information over and over again, with many different passwords to remember while the customer is concerned about sharing and delivering information and loses confidence in online security and privacy, law, and regulations on privacy and data storage are becoming stricter. All these developments need an innovative approach with new services and business models that give customers control. But how key turns the world upside down and gives the customer companies and governments an equal footing in the digital world. Key is a service that offers the customer a private place where he can manage his data and preferences easily and securely.
And from which he has access to his data at companies and governments, or in his own personal data store, he can keep this data up to date himself and share it with others anonymously. If necessary, the customer can now prove who he is, whether he's over 18, what his email address is, what education has been completed, how much he earns or what his medical history is. And he decides himself whether to publish his personal preferences. Anonymously key is a service which enables organizations to develop relevant, innovative products and services that give customers control overview and insight companies and governments can join. When they comply with the rules of the key scheme, the customer can choose with which organization he wants to register his key. And with whom he wants to exchange data with key, the quality improves the costs go down and the customer gains control.
So what you think about this? Well, this is, this is made by, by this companies. And actually what, what they do is try to explain what I just showed you the note. And then the note in relation with the business model, and that's where we are talking about today. And that's why I like to, to take you with me to a few business models, which act already as scheme, like visa is mentioned by drum breed already. We, we know how this works because when I like to pay Vodafone with my credit card, I know that I don't pay Vodafone directly. I know that that money flow goes like this and that parties who are in this, in this scheme need a license. And they, they need their audit certificates to be able to, to play this role. And the beauty of this scheme is actually that it, that it facilitates a two-sided market, a market, which makes it possible that I choose for, for my issuer and that a company chooses for this service provider, or when you see the same.
And we know this also the GSN scheme here, I like to call this lady with what I do in fact is this is the way it goes. So, and I understand that these parties are parties I can choose, and we can do it future versa, et cetera, but it keeps on working. And some, some people don't realize how special it is that I only need to know a phone number. I don't, I don't need to know anything else that a phone number and I can reach everybody in the whole world. So this is a scheme which is working. So why not make a scheme of personal data? Because the only thing I want to know is that I can exchange in a secure way. I want to have this control. I want to have this, this privacy proof way of exchanging data. And I should not have to worry how this is arranged on this side, because I juice my own issuer.
And as already said today, very logical issuers are, are, your bank are maybe in, for other people, are your government, or are your tell? And I, and we see business models coming up for, for these parties who are facilitating something, which is very valuable. And what I like to talk about is the fact that we think that data should be without value in the terms of money, but it's about the added value when data gets a meaning. And this is very interesting because when I, when this should be a bank and I want to have a loan and I have to, to give my salary or the, the value of my house to this bank, it's for me a great service, because for me, it's faster for the bank. It's a lot cheaper in this, in this area. So here, this is only going to this way.
And on this way, you can, this, this ecosystem we, we talking about can almost finance itself. This, this is a search and an important thing in search. And it's a very complex picture to end with is that one very important thing, making this, and we know it from GSM or visa is that, that this, this as independent by governance as it can be. And that means that we as ski foundation are working very hard to make a scheme with a governance, which is completely independent so that worldwide people can connect to a scheme, which is scalable and which can be filled in by market parties who see that here is the new, the new world of tomorrow, the digital world. Great. My contribution.
So that's fantastic. So there any, I think one of the things that's really interesting there is that notion that you can have that value realization if data, you know, some people say data's the oil of the economy. Well, it seems like this may be the, the, these structures of the engine, right? It enables the,
I like what you said, because data is the oil of the economy and you should ask yourself who's oil.
Yeah, yeah, exactly. So that the benefit mutual benefit, where do, Peter's gonna do few comments, but are there any burning questions before we have that? So, Nope. Okay. Peter, you introduce yourself, please. And then talk a little bit about,
So I'm not gonna share any slides. I do something a little bit different. So what I don't want to do is talk to you about a product, right? I'd rather share some ideas, some learnings that, that my company and my group has
Earned the hard way over the last four or five years and here, which your experience have been. So I am a strategist within, with Verizon communications. And this is a weird question for me to ask in the United States, but here not so much, does everybody know who Verizon is? Most everybody, no. Who Verizon is. Yeah. I find outside of the United States, nobody does. And that's not surprising, but if you come to the states in 30 seconds, when, from the time you get off the plane, you're gonna see our name somewhere, right. I came to Verizon about four or five years ago. And I want share with you actually, before I started, I was gonna share you the short story of abject failure, which is probably not gonna inspire a lot of confidence, but I'm going somewhere with this. So I, I came to the company about four or five years ago with the idea that we were putting a team together of smart, bright people to chase down this whole idea of consumer identity.
Because Verizon just like a lot of companies, a lot of, a lot of big companies knows that identity is important, but they don't know why. Right. They don't. It's like they can't figure out, well, what is it? How does this work? How do I put mounting up this? So we did what you would think we would do as a big multinational. We got a bunch of smart people in the room. We rolled up our sleeves for a couple of months, developed some really slick slides, brought an Accenture. Cause you have to do that, right? Validate your findings, went to management and said, Hey, we're ready to go. And, and they said, green light, let's go. Let's sell this thing. First customer out of the gate, one of the largest financial companies in the world based in Manhattan. So you can guess who that is. We get in front of the SVP of card services and we do our wi bag show for an hour, waving our hands, throwing up our, all of our big red machine.
And at the end of it, he didn't say a word at the end of it. He says, I have no idea what the hell you're selling, but your Verizon. So I think I'm interested. And so a couple of lessons from that, right? We knew we were kind of on the right track, but we also knew that we didn't really know what we were talking about yet because nobody did. Right. I don't think anybody fully understood this industry five years ago. And I don't know that we do now, or we wouldn't be here talking about it. So what if we do, we went back into that room, but we didn't come out for about two years. And in that time we spent, we, we did go out. We spent a lot of time in front of the fortune 100 governments, working with the organizations, open ID foundation, the open identity exchange, the world, economic forum, looking at personal data, looking at security, looking at all the components of what the heck is a lifestyle application.
Okay. And then we came out with some learnings. And so what I'm gonna leave you with here in the interest of time is some high level to sort of set the conversation for the rest of the day, at least from my perspective, right? And so number one, everything that, that, that I'm gonna talk about anyways, assumes one thing that's very important. And that is that each one of us has an identity that has a currency value associated with it. And it's not the same. Mine's not the same as yours, right? My, my, my, the value, the currency value of my identity or identities is gonna be more than someone who maybe works down at the gas station. It's just real, right? We all have different values associated with our identity as an identity provider, which I think is a bad word, and we shouldn't be using it, right.
We should be using relationship provider or relationship manager, identity relationship manager. Our job is to unlock that value on your behalf. So very closely to what, what you were talking about relatively. And that's why I love the fact that she's control so much and not privacy. It's privacy's a misnomer. My mind. The second thing is I understand that acoustically privacy is what's that? What was your saying on privacy? What I'm saying is that privacy within the context of the consumer to me is a bit of a misnomer it's control. We're after, right? I'm not. And as a relationship manager or as an identity provider, I can tell you right now, from all, from all of the companies that I've spoken to over the last three years, it's hard to make money in the idea in the business of security and privacy. You have to have it, but no one's gonna buy it.
Okay. It's just reality. Which leads me into the, to the last part of this, as far as sort of level setting here. And that is, here's something that's real, right? If, if you think that you're gonna develop a lifestyle application, whatever that means, and we're gonna talk about what that means in this group here, and you can't get a relied party to pay for it. You have no product. So, and they're not gonna buy security. They're not gonna buy fraud reduction. They're not gonna buy privacy. They're gonna buy our food. If I can increase revenue for everybody that comes through your door, whether you're a brick and mortar, or whether you're an online property, then I have something you'll buy. This is just the pragmatics of the world we live in. And this is what our research tells us. I'll
Stop there. Great. Now did, did Marsha come in? Yeah. Oh, there we go. So let's, first of all, are there any burning questions, again, we'd like to get the prompt in first and then talk the conversation, but is there anybody who has a question right off the bat that they might forget or great. So Marcy, if you take over, thank you. How
Much time do I have for,
You know, just take a few minutes what feels right, and then we'll move conversation.
Okay. So I cover most of the things during the previous session, just to, for those who have not been at the previous session, I'm Martin, I'm the founder of cloud identity limited also a researcher at Newcastle university, where I work on privacy, where I work on security of personal information and where I try to come up with some usable solutions to give individuals to control over their data within the cloud or on the app or on their mobile devices. So cloud, we founded the company because we got a lot of interest from companies that have been building personal data services, where they had this problem of how to really give an individual the right UI or the right means of sharing data between applications or connecting different data sources or exposing data further. So they, they, they saw that there's a missing bit that was not addressed properly within PDs.
And they saw that it actually could be maybe addressed by some sort of a common thing. And this is where we started developing things related to a building software related to UMMA, which could address some of the challenges that the, the UMMA is user manage access. As we, we described the previous session and it turn out that as a solution, as such and as a technology, as such, it does provide the right means. So we saw that customers do like the ability of an individual having to control. They like to actually leave the integration that they can do with our, or with, with a based software. The only thing is that they already had something. So they already came up with some other technologies or some other solutions to allow individuals have control over their privacy. So my, my main thing that we're working on right now is to show the, not the vendors or basically developers even, or individuals that are building solutions or for personal information, that there has to be some sort of a common way. Or as in the foundation, there has to be some sort of a common layer and inter inter layer that allows individuals to share the data, to establish links between applications, to establish links between different parties. And that's basically what, what we are trying to achieve. We're not trying to focus on what's really the best for particular setting, but what can be applied to different say use cases, different scenarios that we talk to businesses or individuals that are across the number of different let's say industries or sectors.
Excellent. Thank you.
So that, that was a really interesting set of perspectives on the issue. And one of the questions I I'd like to start off with while folks are thinking questions, unless there's anybody wants to jump in. So start thinking about some questions. One of the questions I have is, you know, we're, we're talking about, we see the need, everyone knows there's a need. And so that, that those needs, it would seem like when they get filled, that there would be value because people are having the needs addressed. So what's missing, it sounds like there's some of the missing things missing, and I'd be interested in all three of you commenting on it. Some of the things missing is maybe the, it is a complexity is too great. So maybe his understanding is missing. Is that, is that part of it or is it that there's a challenge to innovation because we already have successful platforms and institutions out there, and people are just saying, I, I, I can't innovate for my successful platform.
My shareholders won't let me try it. Or is it what's happening? The same thing that happened when they started visas, no visa didn't start like that. It was bank Ofer card originally in Hawk, if you read his book, the birth of the chaotic age, it's not a very well written book, but the theme in the book is the bank said, come back later. No, thank you. They weren't really interested at the time because it was collected cooperation. Right. They were com competing and they didn't recognize value. So is it, is it some, is it all three what's going on? That's that's missing Peter. Maybe you can start.
Well, I think there's one thing and I'm, I'm glad you brought up the idea of bank of America and the credit card. Right. Because that's what the credit card came from. Yeah. And I think that's a real, there's a really good analogy there for one of the things that's missing. It's just one of the things, right. And that is the idea of interoperability. If you think about credit prior to the credit card, right? Say in the 1920s, if you wanted to establish credit, you'd go down to the bread maker and you say, you know, I work at the Telegraph company and I make so much, and they'd look at me and maybe they'd make a guess, and then they'd give you some credit. And then if I had to do the same thing at the, to buy a car and to do the same thing at the, at the, at the butcher shop or the gun Smith or whatever it is, and it was all point to point that, so that's the key point here, right?
The invention of the credit card changed all that, right? Because the credit card really is nothing more than a trust framework. That's all it is. Right. Everybody understands the rules, the consumer that understands the rules. I understand what I'm paying for this credit card and what my benefits are. The merchants all understand that they're gonna get paid. They understand what their fees are, right? The, the issuing bank understands what their relationship is, right. And so really that's all that is. And I can use it all over the world. I can buy bread with it. I can get it hotel here in Munich with it. I can do whatever I want is a trust framework. If you think about identity, that's really where we really are still in that era of the, of establishing relationships that are very much point to point. So I think that's one of the things that missing is missing. And what we, our response to that is, but is to focus on smaller E or more defined ecosystems, say student populations, or, you know, defined ecosystems. And with the idea that we might be stitching those together down the road. How about the other presenters?
What do you think is this? Well, I, I, I, I follow you, you're saying, because I, I read this book from D I could recommend party. And then you see also that visa wasn't there from one day on another. This and that makes me believe that a personal data ecosystem, a trust framework for exchanging personal data is just a matter of time. We have to get things in place. And I think that interoperability is, is one of the component. Very big issues, clear, transparent governance is one of the very big issues. But also when we see this momentum and today, people put in this, that, that what's happening today with, with, with the snow and the NSA keeps is facilitating actually the speed of the, of the, of the process, because people slowly get aware of the value of their identity. And on the other hand, there's a negative side, identity theft and identity fraud is the, the fastest growing way of criminality. So I, I, I agree that that, that, that you can, you can discuss a lot of, of privacy. Is this important? Yes or no. And I also agree with you that, that privacy and control have to do something with each other, because what, at the end of the day, privacy should be a setting my setting. So there are privacy and control, touch each other. And that's why we need a, a ecosystem where we are in control. And I'm in control of my privacy. And my privacy for, for me is different than your price. So,
So what, oh, sorry, go, who pays this ecosystem for which use case,
Sorry,
Who pays in this ecosystem for which use case, is it the end user or is it the service or is it
It's, it's very nice that, that that's not one answer because when, when you dive a bit deeper, then I, I, I explain to you one very obvious one that is that when let's say when, when, when here is a subscription and, and this party has to control a lot from this person, there's a lot of money involved to do the controlling. So when the, the, the data, this party has to control can be delivered by the ecosystem. The one invested in this relation just for patrolling can, can be invested in this relation. And I, I dare to say that this is, this is less expensive than, than this one. And it's faster. It's easier, it's it is more human because I'm, I'm in control. So when I want to give ed data attributes, I can, I can do it like this. So here, here is a value, but that's a very simple value.
Another, another value is that when, when data just like data, we, we, we, I think we have a, a social responsibility to, to try to, to make a world where the data in rest is, is, is without a value without a, without a value in terms of money. And that means that when parties like right here or in this, in this ecosystem built smart applications using data, I can collect myself. There's a second, second business model. And that is not one model. We, we, we did last, year's a lot of research and we see a lot of different ways of earning money on that one on a very way. And that's also a way where, where customers can do two things, delivering an application to a customer can be a form of loyalty, but delivering an application can also be a subscription to a service. So it creates new ways of doing your
Business. And one of the things that seems interesting about this scheme is that in different contexts, you may have different sources of the original revenue, but if there's value monetary or otherwise generated for all the parties, the original source of the value isn't necessarily critical. These schemes generally need to be flexible enough so they can take any particular monetization element and find the other values. And so it can be used in a variety of context. And that's true of a lot of different transactions. Did you?
I think that key point area is the monetary or otherwise rather. Yeah. So if you are talking about visa and the ecosystem, you are transferring actual money, right? And then you are taking a commission and everybody's happy because the one who's taking the commission is taking a small portion and it's easy to see that, okay, it's just a small portion. I will pay this work. And for example, in GSM, maybe not the operators don't take every second word or every hundred words out of the conversation, but still the value of a conversation is paid by money. You know, exactly that one minute will cause me sense or whatever. And so it's, it's also kind of transferring money and somebody takes commission and it's accepted. And if we think that that personal data has some value, then why are we always trying to convert it to this other domain of money?
Why cannot we just think that, okay, you, you get this information, I get this information. We are actually sharing information and make it a currency and drop the money out of it. In Finland, we have this group of about 20 people. We've been talking about business models of money, data, or personal data. And the best practice at the moment is that if you're thinking about your business model or business plan, and you cannot get the direct monetary value out of business plan, drop out money and start thinking in terms of data for quarter kind of partners, you can share data with, do I hold any data or information that could be interesting to another party? How could both benefit without exchanging money?
So I just wanted to answer, I wanted to respond to the use case question, cuz we could, we can talk about, I've got tons of 'em, I'm sure you guys do. And you know, we can go through use cases and use cases, and then those are valuable in sort of illustrating ideas, but there's really only one thing in my mind, there's one thing that we have to do for a person that's it is the only use case that matters. And that is we have to reduce friction in the way that we engage in the world that we've created, reduce friction, friction, meaning the way that I engage in commerce, right? The way I engage with online entities, the way I engage with brick and mortars, customize ways that I can engage with with bricks and mortars based on me, based on the, what, what I want. Right? So it's all about just removing frictions. And I think that's the overreaching use case that we're talking about with a lifestyle application.
So I actually wanna poke at this credit card thing for years and years now, I've normally used this, but heard this magic form get way over. And frankly, visa was actually not the first successful credit card credit card system has been around now for 50 years, who was the first successful credit card is good by in fact, at the same time, about half a dozen additional mechanisms in the credit cards space, all went bankrupt. At that same time, everyone looks at visa and MasterCard at the moment and looks at a fully tight system where you actually come to understand the way that all the participants interact at the end of the 50 years and say, well, it's obvious the folks who started out, they had no idea what they were building and they, most of them failed and it took 50 years. So many of the issues that we look at here is like sometimes it's instructional to look at how did you actually make progress in what admittedly is a very successful space when most of it failed.
And you know the question about why did it not fail interestingly? So where, where did the, the guys that already lost in S club succeed, they succeeded in New York for one new case zone. And that was payment for business years. That turned out to be the only place that anybody got to be successful. And it wasn't can, I do transactions at an international level as I travel around countries, but frankly that's actually only really impossible. The last 20 years, the credit card networks have been not interoperably for most of that time. Certainly the debit card networks have. And so the questions much more becomes, although I like the system much more interesting question is how do I actually get traction for the problem that people have not for the problem would like to imagine, would like to solve someone.
Speaker 10 00:38:07 I think it's also, it's still, even if, if this is a different opinion, I think it still depends a bit on the use case. I give you an example also relating to values. If I'm in a situation that it would be good for me to send my blood pressure once every hour to my doctor, I would never, ever. And I think most of you would not do that if Google was the service provider and if they gave it to me for free, no, I will be prepared to pay for it, of course, because this is a service which is not available in this world and where I think it would be extremely attractive for me. It could be life saving. It's a very easy business model. I have something here and my blood pressure, especially once every hour or even once every half hour. And if something goes wrong, my doctor phones me up, but it's not. And I can be sure that my blood pressure will, will, would not be sold. That values of my blood pressure would not be sold to my insurance, to my health insurance so that they rise my monthly fee because I'm, I'm having to too high blood pressure. I'm a risk. So this needs to be private. This needs what we call life management. I leave the platform away. This is what, what life management is, where life management, isn't enabler for a business, for a model. And I would of course pay for that model.
So I actually, so frankly, in most research I've done and did this a paper. Yeah, no, you won't, you won't pay for that. Almost all consumer funded mechanisms have utterly failed to get off the ground. And the reason is that we all make assumptions about what people actually want as opposed to what they do in practice.
Speaker 10 00:40:01 Yeah. Not most of them because I pay for my mobile phone because there
Are
Speaker 10 00:40:07 Being able to phone with my mobile,
Right? Because you have a very generalized use as lives, a large amount of value. And it turns out there's almost none of those in existence when it catch right down past. Cause most of the Internet's free and this is the challenge of why we,
And if you think about it with your cellphones, having subsidized to get you into the service. So you're really not paying for the full cost of the Phillip. You paid eventually the all in
Speaker 10 00:40:29 Service. No. If, if you know the Matthias, you would not let this be sponsored by order phone or whomever. I buy it myself because it's sea. I buy it myself.
Yeah. But I would also argue, I would sorry, but first, why do you think I raised my hand and said, I want to talk about my abject failures.
Well, you have so many, no, this
Whole credit. Cause you're right. The whole, the whole idea of this credit card, you know, it didn't happen overnight. And really we're talking about a finished product. It's up 70 years to build it.
Speaker 10 00:40:59 We are arguing about business models, which in nowadays internet are not possible. Why don't we try to see how they can, what happens if they are possible? If we have the foundation, of course it is difficult today. Today we saw different approaches to how such a live financial infrastructure could be set up and get it running with Uma. We have, we have other protocols, we have standardization processes. We don't know yet, which of those processes will make the game. So we are still in some uncertainty. Maybe there is, needs to wait a bit down. I don't know. But I would like, we, none of us has seen those business models. Those use cases in place because today they are not possible
Actually. So I would, I, I think there's a separate technology about to do a lot of this for way longer than most of us actually would like to admit. There is a question though, if you're in a start point, actually build something. You have to get someone to pay for. So actually very fundamental issues about, do you have something that you can cause if you don't, you don't get to pay next yourself. Yeah. And so you actually alone, you would like to talk about one of the new models. You actually have to deal with the world today to work out how to boots strike. Yes. And that's, that's the challenge for all of us.
One of the, one of the elements we might explore. Also, if you think about it, let's think about it from this there's two ways to make money, right. Additional revenue and save costs. Sure. Right. So what, what from a cost savings perspective, think about this. You know, shipping is now outsourced to FedEx. Payroll is outsourced by all companies. Data processing went to EDS comp credit, went to visa, whatever. So all these things got outsourced. What's the thing that's sticking. Why aren't these things being outsourced is part of it. The compliance like in the United States, you can't develop the scale as easily because you have 39 different federal statutes for different sectors. So you have to customize their outsourcing has to be done in a particular way because of the different regulatory structure. But in Europe where you have in, in Germany, for instance, where you have a single data law, you have a data authority, it would seem like there's more uniform market. So are there any things that people are seeing in those situations where there's more uniform cost profile that enabling some kind of outsourceable service would actually save companies money? So the driver wouldn't be so much the value initially for the user, but rather the value for the company lowering costs. Is anyone seeing that in places where there is that regulatory consistency?
I, I can tell you a story. So I, I actually put, so we, we went down that route,
You
Know, you increased your revenues, lower cost, that's it, that's all we have a business. Right. So, and I could tell you, I was, I got in front of a CTO, a fortune 100 and went through again, this presentation said, look, we can reduce your fraud. We can make, and we can reduce your cost with this, with a managed service for your employees. And you looked at me in the face and said, it's not worth it. It's just not worth it. Okay. I have fraud built into my business models. Okay. And ripping my ripping off what I have now and paying you for it. Why would I do that? I've already got it. Yeah. It's a, some investment and they're, and from a consumer perspective for consumer facing companies, they're not willing in my experience anyways. I'm not saying I have the only right viewpoint here, but is that they will not pay for identity unless you can increase revenue. Lowering cost is not gonna get it done. Interesting. And in fact, but that has to be a piece of it, but that's like a table stick.
Yeah.
Speaker 11 00:44:38 That
Was very interesting. You just saved me. One of the abject failures that I won't go
Pioneers have all the arrows in
Their
Is interesting notion. Cause that gets back to the innovation challenge. Right? They've already innovated that. And one of the things is the profile, at least in the United States, the profile of cost is not sufficiently scary for people to incur new costs. There's no regulatory threat right now, the targets of the world and those kind of things don't happen with sufficient frequency that people are getting the urgency, I guess. And so it sounds like it's part of it goes back to innovation issues is why should we reinnovate on top of something else. There's no demonstrated value to that for the company.
Part of it is you have to understand how the companies actually so cost does work compared to, can I increase bottom line, even top line revenue that blows away all our right that's right. And so if you were trying to find what's the way to be most successful, as opposed to just have lot failures like Peter and I, and I've done this paper, you know, the reason I went to paper was that I got start with 300 million consumer identities. So I figured as a start was hard to do this. So I started 300 million. Okay. And it's still really hard just to be quite clear about this and what we went after was delivery of the most short term and immediate value. We could find the consumers that would increase value still. So this is not to dissuade anyone. It's just that we talk too often in these large scale terms.
And the use case is really important. Cause we keep, one of the things I learned from PayPal was if I couldn't actually give value to everybody, then it was not start. It was just did not start. And the thing was most is most of my peers I talk to and say, blah, blah value. It's like, no, that's not consumer value. That's value to the end, to the service provider or blah. Blah's like, no, that's actually, you know, people keep confusing who actually really gets the value they would pay for. And sometimes that's the hardest conversation is like get down to a really simple use case and like does even generate money is actually, so, you know, if you were in a shark tank thing, that's what I would apply to anyone who was playing.
Speaker 11 00:47:03 It's not reputational risk initial yet you, it hasn't been mentioned. And yet we, you know, we've been littered here even is as recently as this morning where Google being, you know, forced under European rule with the right to be forgotten, to start taking, you know, that guy's stuff off, off Google and, and you can sort of kind of my sense is that, so I think there is actually something else that's missing and it's that that's that regulatory, you know, whip. Yeah. That, that, that could it's, it's kind of behavior altering in the way that cost and revenue is. So would that offer another dimension to be able to do
Something? I, I, so the regulatory piece in my mind that the only issue there regulatory is gonna be a part of this. It's gonna be, we all know that, but the problem is if we don't get our act together and do some of the lifting, most often the regulatory, the regulators shoot about five years behind the rug. So, and it causes a problem for all of us. So that's why we have organizations like NS stick in the United States, national strategy for trust identities in cyberspace. And you've got store, you've got all these, the open ID exchange working on these kinds of big problems. And you've got strange bedfellows working in these organizations to solve that. But you brought up a really good point and they, and that is the risk to brand. And so that's something that I know that our company is very concerned about. So when you come with this idea that we've got this lifestyle application and we wanna leverage all this data, whoa, you know, you get in a room with 15 lawyers and it's, I mean the, the risk of the brand and the flight. If you think about it, we're 130 billion concern. Our analysis tells us that that could be a 10% hit overnight. If you get it wrong, that's real money. So if I'm an executive, I'm gonna be pretty cautious about that as well.
So anyone that's been in the security industry knows the reputational risk, but it's an insurance site. If you don't buy this stuff, bad, things will happen to you. And if you're a CSO, you get about three or four years of that. And then the board says the numbers happen. And so it's okay, but it's only limited the opportunity. And I'll encourage anybody thinking about this is the opportunity in the identity space is that it gets you out of the insurance style, into the, I can increase your top line revenue by increasing opportunity for you trumps all this just totally trumps all. So it's not easy necessarily to do. And I don't, you know, I've got still working on ideas. I got plenty of favors, as many as Peter, but that's kind of the most, I have more,
I think in, for example, personal health opening, your APIs is already a hygiene factor. You cannot bring to the market wifi scale or, you know, these demands or which collect data without giving the user the control or the data. So you are making money with some, some something else. And then you just need to open the data in order to be allowed in the gate. And that's also one kind of business plan or business model where, okay, you, you opened your data source. You, you let the user control his own data and you make money elsewhere.
Speaker 10 00:50:34 Sure. A similar case would be take the telcos. If they, if one telco starts offering, Laars sealed end to end encrypted onion based blah, blah, email, nobody in the world can, can read. That could be something where maybe some people would pay $3 a month, but it could also be something where a telco would significantly improve its position in the market
Sometimes. So for example, I've sold multifactor authenticators and the early days in banks, you get these weird things that happen. So you go to the bank that says, I would love to invest in that cause would have all of those benefits,
But that's myself.
But if I way, if I put it in place, people will wonder why I had to do it. When the guy down the road didn't need. So you get these weird kind of things react sometimes. So I agree in, in theory, these are good, but it, you know, you have to actually have the specific board, the
Speaker 10 00:51:38 Perhaps have changed. We are now in, in a situation that everybody, I mean, if you open any newspaper, you read about privacy. You read about that. Everybody can rebuild emails, people start being annoyed by, by this kind of, of digital life. They don't like it anymore.
I think we're digressing slightly. Look, we love security. We're one of the largest man of security providers on planet birth. Okay. So this is very important to us, but we're talking about lifestyle applications and security is one component, right? Security is a component. Privacy control is a component, right? Peer to peer. This is what you're implying with these bands. Something I've got one in my pocket. Right. And, and I think that what, we're one of the things that's gonna be the effect of, of this idea of a lifestyle application on social is that social's gonna change right. The way social works right now is we all like a bunch of her, of Buffalo go to this Porwal and then we all exchange stuff there. Yeah. Right. And I think what you're gonna see in the future is more of this idea of peer-to-peer whereby here's a use case for you whereby I, I, for example, Andrew, here's walking down the street, he's got a girlfriend.
He he's he's on a business trip, walks by a stores, gets a, well, I, I used to say that about me and my wife saw that one day and said, stop saying it that way. So it's, she's a different way, but I'm walking down the street and I get a, a buzz on my phone that says, oh, Hey, this is a address. That's on her list. And it's right here. And I take a picture of the QR code. I buy it. I don't get her dress size because she doesn't want me to have that. Right. That's this is the idea, peer tope. Well, that, that might be just shared with, with the vendor, the address that I'm done. And I move on and I go about my business. Again, the idea of, of removing friction from a transaction.
Speaker 10 00:53:23 Another thing I want you to say is I, I try to distinct between selling security and selling privacy. These are two different fields. If I sell, if somebody tries to sell me some fancy device to do my online banking, I don't need it. Because even if I'm, if I'm working at an Analyst company, I have to admit, I still do it with paper based transaction numbers. And I find it safe enough for me. I would not invest even half a dollar to have such a one time password device. I don't need it, but sending an email, which nobody can read on a very reliable base I would pay for it's totally different.
So you would pay for it. But here's the problem. So with the Oura conference in many years in London, what we did was a survey where we would ask people how important this price. Yeah. Having gotten the answer, we would then offer to exchange their password for a MAs. 80% of people took that option.
Speaker 10 00:54:24 Yeah.
So
Speaker 10 00:54:25 My last message before leaving
Here is very clear what people say and their behavior is what keeps screwing us up. Yes.
Speaker 10 00:54:35 But my last message, the very last one times have changed. You are talking about things which are years ago. No, no. I think this is 2014 is a different year.
I would like, sorry, this is not actually, so human nature in this space has not been any different. So are people more aware? Yes. When was the last time you actually had a major breach of your private data?
Speaker 10 00:55:02 Well, I know some basics how to behave, so I didn't have one.
My point is until it happens to you, don't actually, you only care about it intellectually. And that's the,
That's the target problem too. So this was a great discussion. Now I just wanna make sure people know. Thank and let's first. Thank.
