EIC 2012 Opening Keynote

European identity and cloud conference. We started this afternoon with our sort of traditional keynote session with a lot of different keynotes in there. And today we have tube persons here in stage at the beginning, which was very happy to welcome Dr. NHL Cameron. He's the CEO of the center policy on emerging technology. And maybe he could explain better than me, what it is about. And it's me, Martin Kuppinger founder and principle Analyst of Ko a Cole. We took together.

We do this first session and NHL, Cameron will be sort of your host leading through the entire afternoon with a lot of different sessions, then a lot of different keynotes. And I think it'll be very interesting, like every year.

So marsh, maybe you'd like to talk a little bit about what you're doing when you're not at the conference here. Sure.

It's, it's very nice to be here. And I am an American with a British accent having been in the states now for 21 years, I still sound, I think, reasonably like a European in Sofar as Brits I Europeans, which is of course, another question I have over the last four years been working in Washington DC, where we have been developing a new think tank called the center for policy on emerging technologies, trying to look long term a technology impacts from a nonpartisan point of view in Washington, which you might think everybody would want to do. But in fact, we don't have much competition.

Very nice to be here. Okay. So great. So let's directly start because we have limited time and he promised me to shut down the microphone. If I'm talking too long, by the way, we'll talk both. So I can always blame him guilty for not keeping our schedule.

Yeah, let's welcome. Let's say welcome again. So it's our sixth conference and you feel like at the title we've put in the cloud part a little bit more emphasized there. So I've written it here in bold because it's really about information security in different areas on premise and in and for the cloud. So the topics over the years became a little bit bigger than pure classic identity access management. I think we will. We have been again pretty successful. So we have a 35 person growth compared to last year from the current numbers.

We have some new Analyst Analyst here, which are Alexei Balaganski, you know, and maybe for quite a while, he has been acting as our CTO internally for longer time and doing more and more research, being able to dive very deep into those things. We have Craig Burton on board. Many of you also will know. I think he will be there tomorrow and the day after. So he's in the hotel, but not yet here we have Phillip our fall here, which has been at, we has been at sun, sun Microsystems before. So some new people here, we have a lot of new types of reports besides all the reports we are here.

So we have a standardized star rating right now for when and product reports. The first one or two are out using this rating and we will continue to do this, which really allows them to compare much better between vendors and which also will lead to a series of documents, which will then be really more what we call market compass, comparing different vendors and their products with based on standardized rating, which goes beyond, let's say two dimensions trust. So really a little bit more differentiated.

And we have also a series of new documents because scenarios which are sort of our lead documents, really explaining more, the high level view on things. We have. Another thing I should manage is that there's a QR QR code, batch Drager.

You, you all have this small QR code on your batch and you can use your mobile phone or your iPad to, to, to, to batch, to track these codes. And then you automatically are sort of connected to the people, the instructions on how to use are in your conference back. And the other thing I just wanted to highlight is you have four weeks of complimentary access to cooking or cold research. And given that we have published recently a series of new reports and there will be some others out during this week. I think it's very interesting to access this written part of our work. Okay. Yeah.

I mean, what interests me coming fresh to cupping a coal into your work in the last year, the centrality of thought leadership, which is here at the start, thought leadership framing the questions. And so, I mean, talk a little about, about the challenges, about how things are moving ahead. Yeah. I think when we look at TM, what has happened over time, I think it's very, very obvious that a lot of things have changed in it. And we have this topic of cloud computing for quite a while, mobile computing, social computing.

And it's very obvious that these fundamental changes won't go away anymore. So it's something we have to deal with. We have to adopt the way we are working to these changes and at leads to two things, which are very important. I think one is consumerization of it, which is a break term. So the persons we are dealing with is, are changing. We have sort of an identity explosion. If you look at it from an enterprise perspective, not only are employees anymore, you have 10,000 employees, but you might have millions of customers. It's an identity explosion. You have to deal with.

We have a lot of things to cover there, different devices bring your own device and all this type of things. And we have a deep periodization of it. So we don't have this parameter around our enterprise anymore. And I think these are the big things in which we really have to, to look at it in these days and we have to adopt the way we do it. And especially we do identity and access management for all these exploded identities or for this number of this exploded number of identities to really covers.

I mean, how, how do you find the, the practical outcome of, of, I mean change, I mean, of course too, traditionally, we're still working in a situation in which we used to have technology companies that did technology and used technology. Now we're talking about every company and how you can essentially enable them. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's enabling, I think they're, they're choosing cause first one start a little bit was looking at what I would call economies of scale. So why do we have to change those things? And the next thing then I will look at is how do we do it?

And I think that when we look at this situation, we are have an increasing number of outward facing process in, in our organizations. So not only a few suppliers, but we have our customers connecting all the others. We have this identity explosion, a growing number of users to deal with. We have a growing number of external it services used. It might be that one evolution is a little bit quicker than the other, but overall we have three, three things evolving in the same direction and they are all related to the points I had before.

So the number of users, that's about consumerization, it's about social computing, outward facing processes, ares about de parameterization mobile computing, the same. And we have to external it services used, which is the cloud computing part. And we are somewhere here a little bit more to the left, a little bit more to the right. It doesn't really matter. But the point is we have to change in this context. We have to change the way we are acting. And I think the, the simple statement to make here is that traditional silo, inverses facing, and two centric, it will not scale economically.

And that's really the point then where we have to think about how can we do it better? And yeah, that's what I'd like to talk about right now. Yeah.

I mean, this Is the point that every single, every single company in the world is now a market and is now needs the kind of facilitation which it is providing. And yet of course, increasingly because these are non-technology companies, they don't want technology.

And how, how do you, how you square the circle? Yeah. I think the point is even, even the technology companies don't want technology. At least most of the people in there don't want it.

So, so when we look at the term of it and I've thinking my last year, keynote, I sometimes said, Hey, it's about the I another T in it. So about the information, other technology. And I think that's a really important thing. And what business really wants from it. I think there are two simple points. One is business. Trust wants the services. They need to do their chop. They still want it. They want it for many years right now, but we are still not really providing business the tools in the way they want it to do their chop at best.

We are struggling with the agility topics and organizations, all the other things. So the other thing which really came more, the trend that during the last few years is the part of business wants to keep corporate information, protected Aly and explicitly say Aly, it's not always very tightly strong, protected. There are things which are more or less public, but others need needs to be very, very secure.

I mean, security right now is on the agenda of the C level. So I always say if you're five years back, if you lost some customer data, okay. In worst case, you ended up at the first date, first page of the CIO magazine or something like that.

Right now, if you're losing the same data, you are likely to end as the prime use in TV at prime time. So making the first headline there, and that's a totally different situation because that's really about reputation, loss about strategic risks, about for sure as well, operational risks. And there's a much worse situation. We have grief notification, other things to do.

And what it really has to do is to cover these two points, secure corporate information, and provide business services in a way that you really can call them business services and not what it thinks a business service might be. And so what's the emerging paradigm.

I mean, what's, what's your model. Yeah. That's I think the, sort of the would say the auto fat and so the, the ongoing or C at cooking Cole's European identity conference this year, I will talk a lot about Cola paradigm from different S I will put talk about if organizational aspects and others, it's sort of our guideline for the future of it. This is the high level view of this one. If you look at our scenarios, we are drilling down into this, but basically it says, if you look at it should think about three main layers.

One is business service delivery, which really is about providing business services, which is about having product management for your internal uses for your business. So really thinking like vendor inbound, marketing out, bond marketing, really doing it a different way and understanding that a business service is not that some servers are running correctly, like some of the big vendors claim when they're selling business service management, but a business services that a business user for example, can handle the contract correctly.

And in the way he has to do it, that's the business service, that's his view. And then we have to layer in between, and that's the core layer of it from my perspective, which I call it, it service and security management, which is about service management. So looking at all the services, procuring services from on-prem and cloud orchestrating the services, managing the services, being able to really know what does a service cost to orchestrate services, to new types of services, really targeted to the consumer, to the business. That's really what it's about.

And then you can security services. That's a layer where you can do these things and you cannot do other things.

You, when you handle all the services consistently, you know what they cost, then you can do things like resource planning. You can do things like an E R P for it. And it's still, I think, let's say one of the most ridiculous things in it that we have an E R P application for every part of the organization, besides it think a consistent layer here helps a lot.

And then we have the production, which is on premise or in one of the many different types of clouds and having a consistent management on top of service and security management allows you to much better deal with the different types of clouds and other types of delivery models. And the cloud is in that case, nothing else in a delivery model. And so doing it consistently really helps you. And I've put this approach, this paradigm to a stress test, always when I write a report, which is based on that thing until now, it will result these stress tests.

So I think it's a model which really helps you in, let's say moving forward from a manufacturing it towards an interest, realize that here. So like in production you have a management and you have the technical production, and I think we should do the same thing in it, which also makes it much easier to do than make or buy decisions, for example, because we do it at the it service and security management layer, do we make it on premise or do we buy it in the cloud? It's trust the simple economic make or buy decision at the end of the day.

And for sure we need some governance Fisher also in the model In there. Yeah. I mean the, the, the sort of siloed nature of our organizations, obviously both the big silos, but then you have the silos within it. Yeah. And one assumes that some pretty fundamental disruption is Taking place. I think we all know it.

And, and one of the new reports we've published last week was it's called the future of it organization. And this report is really about using the Cola it paradigm as a guideline and looking at what does it mean for an it organization. And it means for an it organization really moving away. And that's what we explained in this report, moving away from a siloed approach where you have your many different silos, your service management, your it security, your application development, your application architecture, your SAP operations, your mainframe operations and whatever.

So we all know we have a lot of silos. That's a the on the, the upper left edge. So the typical thing and moving towards the broad, which is much more oriented on that structure. There's three layers, which really is then about saying, Hey, we have this business facing part with its product management visits, marketing visits, translation to business, understanding really what our users want to have close being closer to the business. We have this middle layer, which is really about managing the services, procuring services about ensuring that we handle the services correctly.

And we have this sort of production layer down there where we have done an on-premise production or not depends on the organization. We might do virtually everything on premise. We might do virtually everything in the public cloud and or most of us will do it somewhere in between my strong belief is that the, it of most organizations will remain hybrid. And I think it's very important then to really start restructuring the it organization, according to the way we need to do it. And I think it's, that's a big task for sure. That's not nothing you can do within a week or two, for sure.

But I think it's right now, it's the time to do it. And yeah, you, you might say, okay, we've been talking about such things for quite a while, so that we need to move away from the silos. And you might also say, okay, there, there are some things, and there's a demand driven it, which have been discussed also for quite some years. Sometimes I think the important part is we are in a situation today where we can make it, because right now we have the clouds offerings being so mature that we have the different deployment options we have to make or buy decisions we can make.

We can choose between different things. We have the technology to orchestrate services. So we have a lot more things in there which are, which enable us to, to move forward from a technical perspective. So if you look at the way we produce business services and based on that, we are also able right now to change our it organizations because the world of it has so has changed. So fundamentally that we are sort of have overcome, I would say the, the limitations, which hindered us in becoming more business driven, more demand driven in the former time.

I mean, I, I interest me that the terminology really hasn't changed. We still talk about it. Even if the focus is on, as you say is on, is on the eye. I was interested last summer, I went out to amp in Australia.

You know, they have this innovation festival every two years called amplify amp amplify. What is interesting about this?

It's, it's a big innovation festival, 10 days. Lots of people go and, you know, fly in speaking specifically about innovative technologies. It's run out of the CIO's office. So at AMMP, you know, which is Australia's largest financial financial house, innovation is coming out of the it department spread out throughout, across, across the organization. This is pretty unusual model, but the notion that it ends up being not only one of the silos, but one of the silos within which there are these very rigid silos seems to me to be ripe for innovation from the ground up. Yeah. Yeah.

I think it's currently, it's the situation and I think we have to change it. The point I I see is, yeah, I take talk about it. It's correct.

You know, we're still talking about it, but we need it. I think it's a problem. I think it would be too much to change term of it, by the way. But I think this what we are doing here and what we have in mind here is really helping enable us also in that trial and innovative organization, because we can right now provide, if you do it right, we can provide services in another way than we did before. So we can really drive innovation there. And Of course you need to begin with the terminology, which is symbolic and with, with the assumptions and structures, which people, which people have now.

Yeah. But what about, well, let's move to trends. What's what's What's up. Okay. Like every year I've talk, I talk a little bit about trends.

So I have, we have also another new report out there. I'm not quite sure whether it's published, but it will be published this week, which are the top grants for the next 12, or maybe I'll see 18 months. So what we, what we do, we expect to happen there. I just picked 10 out of them. I think one is data loss prevention is the number one topic for organizations in it, departments in the next 12 months, that's something I've touched with the need for information security, breach notifications and all these type of things. Trust are hot topic, and everyone wants to avoid it.

So we have to deal on that. And, and hopefully we do it in a way which is not focused on point solutions because I think too many things done today in, in the data leakage prevention area are really point solutions, which maybe close one of the security holes you might have, but leave others open and that's not sufficient. So you need a strategic approach on it. You need a holistic view on this, but it's a hot topic, definitely for sure. Everyone still wants their own device. So bring your own device will remain a hot topic. And my perspective is you never will change this again.

So we are in a situation simple simply said where bring your own device is a reality. And I think there, there are two approaches here can, can have one is trying to blade it on Kiko, trying to stop an evolution you can't stop, or you can say, okay, let's make the best out of it and how to deal with it. And then it's about information security.

It's about information centric security, because if you can't manage the devices in the way you might have done before, because there are too many different devices because you don't have the legal rights to do everything on these devices because no one of us knows which will be, which will be the hype device in two or three years. No one knows it. So you can't have a device and approach device security might help you in some areas as long as you can enforce it, but you have to look at information security.

So keep your information secure, protect your information encrypted and all these things. So I think that's one of the two big, one of the other big trends. We will see more cloud computing standards. I think there's a big demand, a big pressure on cloud computing standards. So we will see more of them, including skim standard. We will hear more about is skim is simple cloud identity management. That's the successor to SPM L or spam sometimes pronounced, which never became really successful. Hopefully goes better with ski.

At least some of the large, very large cloud providers are supporting it. We will see more than ever that I am really will come to the cloud. So more offerings in that area. Very obvious. I think that's the masks. A lot of people are asking. I've seen it also in the workshops this morning, a lot of people are, are asking, do you have a solution in the cloud? Can you manage it in the cloud? So I think it's a very obvious evolution we are facing here. So I think that's really one of the big things we are, we are seeing without any doubt. And I think that's just too logical that we can do it.

And one of the sessions for example, would also be about how can I end up with one IM anyway, because I will have my view on the things which the service I have to manage in the cloud. I have my internal services and I should do it consistently. And if you look at or go back to our Cola, it paradigm and the model underlying, then it's about having one management layer for services and information security, which is consistent across all the different deployment models from on-premise to the public cloud. And again, that's a very important thing to keep in mind.

At the end of the, the day you shouldn't end up with separate its for on-prem and for the cloud world, it should be one you end up within standards will help us. And I am offering switch support. This hybrid world will help us.

Well, I think an interesting point we've seen last year and virtual not get become better this year is that continuous breach of trust providers will further undermine the reliability, not only but especially of digital certificate. So we had some very, very diverse situations there with digital others, digital certificate gets getting hacked, digital certificates, getting stolen. If you look at the GQ UQ tag and others, so it's a really bad situation we are facing. And we have to expect that there's nothing really trusted anymore in it security.

I think that was what happened in 2011 that we sort of had to lose the trust and the things we might have trusted until then. And so we have to think about how can we deal with this? How can we combine different things? How can we become more versatile in authentication other things to deal with this situation? And I think it's a, it's an interesting challenge there because if you can't trust the things you have trusted until now anymore, then you have to think about what you do now. And given that most of the things we are doing here are building on trust.

That's a, none of the easy situation GRC will detect the topic of that fits to the first one or the topic of data loss mitigation. So what is that data loss mitigation? That's the term Dave currents brought to me and I like it. So it's about thinking what, before what to do when worse things have happened, your body should start thinking about this before, because if you have 24 hours for your breach notification, then you have to have a plan available, which says, okay, if this thing happens, I handle it that way. How do I get my data back? How do I do the communication?

All these types of things. You can't handle this in 24 hours, if you have to do a breach notification, for example. So I think it's a very important point. And I think it's a standard element in fact of good, good GRC, good governance, first compliance. So if you have controls in place, then this controls, these controls always should include, what do I do? If something happens? I think it's a fundamental part of everything you you're doing, having the emergency plans available. What happens if, and what happens if the worst case happens, even then you should have a plan available.

Goodyear's encryption will become a hot topic. So one of the, the trends will be trying to encrypt everything because the more you encrypt the less lightly is that someone can steal the raw data. Sort of however, there are limits of this because to process data, we are reaching the limit of encryption. We have to decrypt to process. And the common approach of attackers is to, for example, if you look at credit card, data processors to attack the data credit card data processes, where the encrypted data from the point of sales is decrypted before it goes to the finance industry.

So yeah, continuous, It will, our companies are sorry, continuous companies will start a need to redefine their, I am infrastructures. That was an interesting type. It really took me one moment to, to understand what I like to say here. The companies will start a need to redefine their IM infrastructures to make the Futureproof. I think that's another very interesting thing. So I think the, the days of big fact monolithic identity provisioning as the only elements we are focusing on they past. So we need to look at layered modular infrastructures, which are much more flexible.

And also we have, we'll have some sessions around this and for sure all mobile platforms will remain, remain under attack. So I think iOS had a very big one just recently. And I think that just the starting point, so it's very, very obvious. Once you have reached a critical mass, the attackers are here. That's a very simple, very common thing. And for sure, regulatory pressure pushing IM and GRC will further grow.

So we shouldn't expect that there will be less pressure from that side, Just to, to ask little bit more prediction from you, Martin, obviously two to two major interlocking themes here are, are, you know, data loss and, and trust. Yeah. And they interate in various ways. These are becoming bigger and bigger themes.

I mean, do you, do you think we're moving toward a sort of conversion point where we begin to solve the problems or are we going to be chasing our tail and is this gonna get bigger and bigger? I think that's a hard to say, but I think it's a realistic scenario. And I think what we have to do is to move away from panic investments to move away from point solutions and really start to think strategic about a topic to not try to fix an issue, but to understand what is the, the key thing.

And when we move forward towards more information centric approaches, instead of trying to protect different parts of systems in the worst case, then this really helps. So just to give you one example, I think that's a pretty good one. What we see is people or companies are investing a lot, for example, in SAP security, and maybe they also have some good security at a Unix level, but I forgot to secure a database. So that's what I mean.

You know, if you forget some of these layers by points by working until in point solutions, if you don't have the big picture, then you will fail and you really have to understand, okay, first of all, what is my big picture? Where to start, where are my big risks, understanding the risks, quantifying risks, focus on the risks and then understanding what do, where do I have to start?

What to look for and how can, what does it mean if I start here, do I have some other gaps done, which will in fact mean that this investment was of no worth, but it will be a long journey and it will be not easy for us. And I think one point maybe to add is I've said before organizations understand that they have to care for information security. I think the, the worst part of it is that business wants information security, but I didn't fully understand yet that it costs money and time, which Has a lot to do with the question of integration across silos, both within it.

And then across the organization. Exactly. If you are more agile and more business focused, things will become easier. Yeah. Well life management, Life management, oh, one of the very big, hot topics you might not have heard about is very much there will be around. I will talk about this later. The point is currently, it's still a lot of things where the enterprises and in charge of it, we have a lot of things regarding privacy issues. And on the other hand, a lot of people want to efficiently deal with their personal data.

So the information about my car and all the details, which I want to give to my garage, but only to the garage probably won't share the social networks of today's time. I, and there are some, some evolution there. So we have social networks, we have personal data stores, which are says, okay, I have a secure store for every, all of my personal data, which I need, which allows me to better deal with the things which I usually only have on paper insurance, contract numbers, whatever you have on paper and think it's in many cases, helpful to have it on hand.

If you have on car crash and on vacation, if you can access your personal data store and have all the information in one place, it's very helpful. However, we shouldn't end up with a situation where we have it in a secure storage, and once we decide to give it away, it's gone. So life management is really more about allowing to share that information in a very secure way. And I've put in some features there, I put out some feature, looked at some features there. And so where do we have a protected information store for sensitive personal data?

That's in the personal data stores and life management platforms, but definitely not in social networks of today's style, granular access control for the data store again in the life management and personal data store areas, information control remains with individual. So who is in charge of the information? It's me. If I look at Facebook, Facebook says, once you've entered the information here, it's mine, fundamentally different approach. Doesn't work with personal sensitive data. Then the secure information sharing with explicit consent of the information owner.

So I decide on who may I give, which information that's supports to some degree by personal data stores, but life management platforms will allow us to grow it much better. And there's report written recently out there, which you can access. There will be sort of apps to support privacy and security of our information sharing. Think about you need an insurance contract and you will ask 10 insurances about who offers the best contract to you. Then they might provide their information to that app in a secure way. So no insurance knows about the offer of the other.

And you provide to this app, your information, which they require without sharing it to any information or to any insurance or any insurance company or any insurance broker. So it's really ensuring the app contains the data, it processes and provides you results saying this is the best one. And then you can decide on what do you share with him when you do when you sign the contract? So that's really about ensuring that a minimum of data. So the minimal disclosures thing, Kim Cameron brought up quite a while that this is enforced in a good way. There's also a concept of let's say inform PZA.

That was the insurance thing. How can I really get data from other things? It's a very, very new topic, but I'm convinced that life management platforms will fundamentally change the way we are. Our internet looks like. So it will in many areas within the next 10 or 15 years replaced the social networks of today. So this one of the real, very big things, and it's very much about privacy identity, personal data, data security. There are some sessions I will talk about this later time is moving on. We better wrap up. Yep. Okay.

And there's, by the way, a book out there, the intention economy by Dr who will do a keynote later, which is brand new, covering this topic, another topic. So moving ahead is open APA economy. So how do I deal with services? And today the situation still in the cloud still is pretty frequent that a cloud provider provides sort of a big fat monolithic SA application. So just big fat says, first of com thing or the office 365 thing or whatever.

And that's sort of pretty traditional if we are honest, because it doesn't allow us think about equipping a whole lot paradigm to really provide a business services. The business wants, it allows us to provide the services. The cloud provider offers to the business, hoping that the business wants these, but it's a different thing. And with this API economy thing, it's about the cloud provides exposing a set of services, which we then can orchestrate as our middle layer in the paradigm to provide a business services the business really wants. So that's also one of the influencing factors.

It's very interesting to observe. For example, the Salesforce that come today has more, more load based on their APIs than on their traditional fat lines. I would say interface. So it's really changing.

Also, there will be a lot of information I have to move forward. Otherwise he will shut down my microphone. Okay. Okay. So shut out forward. Okay. Another point to look at, there's also a report out there will be out there. I've had it in my keynote last year, six, three metrics for 2012, 2000 version. That's three targeted to the decision makers in it. We have to focus on six different areas, cloud privacy and customer interaction, enterprise GRC, convergence optimization, information security.

It's really about the, the three major topics in every area which where, where we think they are most important to it organization. So it's sort of the, when you look at your building, your agenda of projects and topics you're looking at in an organization, you can't do everything. Then that's the guideline. As I've said, it will also be reported there. And given that you have complimentary access, you can look at this. And another thing also, there will be a report I've had last year. That's more about predicting where our market's moving. So that's more the complete picture.

There are, let's say more detailed on the less pictures than showing. For example, how is strong authentication, evolving? So cloud readiness, maturity, how are things going forward? I won't go into detail because it will be already too complex, but that's another report. I think very worse to have a look at. So how will the different market segments change within the next 12 to 18 months?

So, and that's it, I think from the, from the content part, I could talk about us for quite a while, but then our schedule, others will have the, of doing that. Yes. And so I trust, finish with some housekeeping parts sort of thing. So one thing is the continuing education credits CPE. So you can earn, I think up to 29, 5 CPE credits at ESE 2012 from workshops and from the conference itself. So for the ones for you, of you who are doing, for example, OSA, certifications, other things, that's a very helpful thing. All the information's available on our website. So I won't talk about it anymore.

And then some more information regarding the agenda today at 7:30 PM, we have snacks and drinks in the expo area. Hope to welcome you there tomorrow and Thursday at 8:30 AM the keynote start. And it's always worse to be there in time. Tomorrow evening at 7:00 PM, we will have our European identity awards, ceremony and buffet dinner. And we have some very, very interesting projects picked this year for these awards. And Friday, we have four really interesting workshops, so you shouldn't miss them For the first year, for the first time.

And this year we have the round table to sort of the direct five. So more intensive discussions intended to be continued after the conference. One of them is the life management platforms round table. And I said, as I've said, I've put a research note on this, into your conference back to get a first direction. I think it will be a really hot topic over the next years. And because I couldn't touch the topics and the seen I've, I've gone through some of them very quickly in all that during at keynote trust one, I mention some of my sessions I'm doing so tomorrow at 10:30 AM.

I will talk about the business value of it and the copy and call it paradigm right after I will talk about the future of it organizations and how to change your it organization. In the afternoon, we have this round table on life management platforms, for example, and Thursday, 11:30 AM. I will do together with correct burden, a session on the cooking, a call it model and the AP economy. So that's it from my side. Thank you very much. Thank you, Niel. Okay. I think we're perfectly in time. We have begun with perfection and I intend that we should remain that way.

Okay, perfect. Thank you very much. Thank you.