WEBVTT 00:00:14.600 --> 00:00:17.100 Welcome to the KuppingerCole Analyst Chat. 00:00:17.300 --> 00:00:17.900 I'm your host. 00:00:18.100 --> 00:00:19.300 My name is Matthias Reinwarth. 00:00:19.400 --> 00:00:23.000 I'm an analyst and advisor with KuppingerCole Analysts. 00:00:23.000 --> 00:00:31.600 My guest today is Jonathan Care, and he is the newly announced practice lead for AI. 00:00:32.000 --> 00:00:34.700 So he's just finding his way in this role. 00:00:34.900 --> 00:00:39.300 But today we want to talk about something different, something we have not yet talked 00:00:39.300 --> 00:00:42.700 at all in any of the episodes of this podcast. 00:00:42.800 --> 00:00:46.350 We want to talk about a KuppingerCole product 00:00:46.350 --> 00:00:49.900 with a kind of behind-the-scenes perspective. 00:00:50.400 --> 00:00:52.800 But first of all, hi Jonathan, good to have you. 00:00:53.600 --> 00:00:56.300 Hi Matthias, and thank you for the warm welcome. 00:00:56.500 --> 00:01:01.200 It's really great to have you, and I know that you spent quite some time and some effort 00:01:02.000 --> 00:01:08.300 in creating this new product, or should I say type of product, or series of products. 00:01:08.300 --> 00:01:13.000 So we want to learn more about that, and we really want to make sure this is not marketing 00:01:13.000 --> 00:01:13.500 stuff. 00:01:13.500 --> 00:01:19.900 We want to tell you why this is there, what role it fulfills, or what gap it fills, and 00:01:19.900 --> 00:01:26.500 what role it is and how maybe also the work of advisors and analysts are changing over 00:01:26.500 --> 00:01:28.100 time and to accommodate that. 00:01:29.000 --> 00:01:34.700 So Matthias, what I want to do is to actually give you and the audience a little insight 00:01:34.700 --> 00:01:39.100 into how we develop new products and services in KuppingerCole. 00:01:39.400 --> 00:01:43.600 And the product I'm particularly interested in talking to you about, because I actually 00:01:43.600 --> 00:01:48.800 think it's quite special, is something we've called the Product Value Navigator, in line 00:01:48.800 --> 00:01:53.900 with our other themes of Nautical, you know, compasses, navigator, and so on. 00:01:53.900 --> 00:01:57.535 And what we saw when we were looking at this 00:01:57.535 --> 00:02:01.500 was that enterprise technology buying is broken, 00:02:02.100 --> 00:02:04.500 and it's broken in a very specific way. 00:02:05.100 --> 00:02:07.800 Buyers have more research than ever. 00:02:08.700 --> 00:02:13.900 There are comparison grids, analyst rankings, vendor demos, and so on and so forth. 00:02:14.500 --> 00:02:20.300 But one question, despite all that, keeps going unanswered, which is what will this 00:02:20.300 --> 00:02:22.900 actually be worth to my organization? 00:02:23.300 --> 00:02:29.300 And of course, ROI clients from vendors are everywhere, but they're not independent. 00:02:30.600 --> 00:02:36.700 Vendor telling you their product delivers 300% ROI is like asking a chef to review their 00:02:36.700 --> 00:02:37.400 own restaurant. 00:02:37.600 --> 00:02:41.600 And that gap between this product is technically good. 00:02:42.600 --> 00:02:49.300 And this product will deliver measurable value for you is exactly what the Product Value 00:02:49.300 --> 00:02:50.900 Navigator was built to close. 00:02:52.000 --> 00:02:54.800 KuppingerCole, of course, has always been about independent research. 00:02:55.500 --> 00:03:01.500 The PVN is us applying that independence to the one dimension that ultimately drives every 00:03:01.500 --> 00:03:04.400 purchasing decision, which is economic value. 00:03:04.600 --> 00:03:10.100 So the concept sounds interesting, but what is what the customer actually gets? 00:03:10.100 --> 00:03:14.100 What is the Product Value Navigator actually like? 00:03:15.400 --> 00:03:21.100 Well, at its core, the PVN is a structured, independently produced economic validation 00:03:21.100 --> 00:03:23.000 of enterprise technology products. 00:03:23.100 --> 00:03:25.100 It's not a marketing document. 00:03:25.400 --> 00:03:27.100 It's a research document. 00:03:27.400 --> 00:03:30.500 It combines three things that have traditionally been kept separate. 00:03:31.500 --> 00:03:35.900 Kuppinger's own deep technical and market research, structured interviews with real 00:03:36.000 --> 00:03:39.100 customers, and rigorous financial modeling. 00:03:40.300 --> 00:03:45.200 The output is a clear, quantified picture of what a product actually delivers. 00:03:46.100 --> 00:03:49.900 Things like ROI, payback period, total cost of 00:03:49.900 --> 00:03:53.700 ownership, and the harder to quantify benefits 00:03:53.700 --> 00:03:57.700 like reduced operational burden or risk reduction. 00:03:57.800 --> 00:04:01.332 Our first published PVN assessed ManageEngine 00:04:01.332 --> 00:04:05.100 PAM360, a privileged access management platform, 00:04:05.100 --> 00:04:09.900 and found enterprises can achieve a 219% ROI. 00:04:10.400 --> 00:04:11.900 And that's not a vendor claim. 00:04:12.400 --> 00:04:15.400 That's independently validated from our analysts. 00:04:16.000 --> 00:04:18.836 So as you said, these are topics that are in 00:04:18.836 --> 00:04:21.800 research somewhere, but they are not combined. 00:04:22.100 --> 00:04:25.300 Is this what makes it different from what already exists? 00:04:26.200 --> 00:04:27.500 Well, I think so. 00:04:27.600 --> 00:04:31.800 I think there are plenty of, as you say, analyst research formats out there. 00:04:31.800 --> 00:04:33.800 We have our leadership compasses. 00:04:33.800 --> 00:04:39.400 We have our white papers, other analyst firms use magic quadrants, wave reports. 00:04:39.500 --> 00:04:44.400 And of course, they are great for understanding where a vendor sits competitively. 00:04:44.400 --> 00:04:49.500 But they do not tell you what the product will be worth to your business. 00:04:50.600 --> 00:04:53.600 And of course, there are also ROI calculators. 00:04:54.200 --> 00:04:58.000 Any of us who've been through that procurement loop knows that a vendor provides a tool. 00:04:58.200 --> 00:05:01.600 You can fill in with your assumptions and get out a number. 00:05:02.400 --> 00:05:08.600 And of course, the problem is those assumptions are often optimistic, to put it mildly. 00:05:09.500 --> 00:05:15.900 Certainly, the methodology is not transparent, and there's no independent voice behind it. 00:05:15.900 --> 00:05:20.300 Now, we set out to build the PVN to be neither of those things. 00:05:20.500 --> 00:05:22.000 It's not a ranking. 00:05:23.200 --> 00:05:25.200 It's not a vendor tool. 00:05:26.000 --> 00:05:30.500 It is an analyst-led, methodology-driven research process 00:05:30.500 --> 00:05:34.600 that produces a third-party economic evidence base. 00:05:36.000 --> 00:05:37.400 So just think of it, Matthias. 00:05:37.700 --> 00:05:38.600 What happens? 00:05:38.800 --> 00:05:41.800 You take the rigor of a cup-and-gold leadership compass 00:05:41.800 --> 00:05:47.000 and apply it not to product capabilities, but to product value delivery. 00:05:47.000 --> 00:05:52.000 Yeah, that sounds good, because this is what, actually, decision makers are looking for 00:05:52.000 --> 00:05:54.916 when they maybe even already have a short 00:05:54.916 --> 00:05:58.400 list or have understood where they want to go to. 00:05:58.800 --> 00:06:00.900 But does it actually deliver that value? 00:06:01.000 --> 00:06:02.600 I think that's really important. 00:06:03.100 --> 00:06:05.600 The question is, how do we do that? 00:06:05.700 --> 00:06:07.900 How did you do that for Manager Engine? 00:06:08.300 --> 00:06:11.600 And how do you get to this information so that, yeah, 00:06:11.600 --> 00:06:14.900 of course, the information is as reliable as possible? 00:06:15.600 --> 00:06:19.900 Well, this is where I think I'll, as I say, take you behind the curtain a little bit. 00:06:19.900 --> 00:06:24.800 And of course, the process starts with Cup-and-Cold's existing research base. 00:06:25.300 --> 00:06:27.300 We don't come to a PVM cold. 00:06:27.400 --> 00:06:30.700 We already have deep knowledge of the market segment, 00:06:31.300 --> 00:06:34.900 the competitive landscape, and what looks good technically. 00:06:35.200 --> 00:06:41.400 Then we layer on top structured interviews with actual customers of the product. 00:06:41.900 --> 00:06:45.300 Not cherry-picked references, but a systematic sample 00:06:45.300 --> 00:06:48.100 designed to capture real-world deployment scenarios. 00:06:48.100 --> 00:06:54.800 And that qualitative insight feeds into a financial modeling framework 00:06:54.800 --> 00:06:56.700 where we build out the economics. 00:06:57.100 --> 00:06:58.700 What did implementation cost? 00:06:59.200 --> 00:07:00.300 What did it replace? 00:07:01.000 --> 00:07:03.500 What productivity or risk benefits accrued? 00:07:03.900 --> 00:07:05.300 And over what time frame? 00:07:06.900 --> 00:07:10.100 And we make sure the result is independently reviewable. 00:07:10.800 --> 00:07:12.400 We show our working. 00:07:13.000 --> 00:07:16.500 So that transparency is central to what makes it credible. 00:07:17.400 --> 00:07:20.600 For every product, every marketer for a product says, 00:07:21.000 --> 00:07:21.600 who is this for? 00:07:21.800 --> 00:07:23.300 Who is the target audience for that? 00:07:23.800 --> 00:07:26.500 I think I have an idea from whom it is. 00:07:26.600 --> 00:07:29.100 But let me ask the question and really explain 00:07:29.100 --> 00:07:33.000 whom are you targeting with that document, with that product? 00:07:34.600 --> 00:07:39.000 Well, of course, there's a couple of different viewpoints here. 00:07:39.000 --> 00:07:43.300 On the buyer side, we want to serve CISOs, 00:07:43.300 --> 00:07:47.600 IT leaders, and procurement teams who are under pressure 00:07:47.600 --> 00:07:51.300 to justify technology spend to CFOs and boards. 00:07:51.500 --> 00:07:55.700 And the PVN gives them that independent evidence base that they need. 00:07:55.800 --> 00:07:59.900 It's not a vendor deck, but it does support their business case 00:07:59.900 --> 00:08:01.000 that they're trying to make. 00:08:01.900 --> 00:08:04.200 Looking at it from the vendor standpoint, 00:08:04.600 --> 00:08:08.900 it's an opportunity to have your product's economic value 00:08:08.900 --> 00:08:12.400 validated by a trusted, independent party. 00:08:13.300 --> 00:08:17.400 In a world where trust but verify is the default, 00:08:18.300 --> 00:08:21.100 that independent stamp matters enormously. 00:08:21.600 --> 00:08:25.200 And we take pride in the fact that we're able to deliver that. 00:08:25.500 --> 00:08:27.900 Of course, the timing is significant. 00:08:29.000 --> 00:08:31.300 Enterprise technology spend is under more scrutiny 00:08:31.300 --> 00:08:34.900 than it's been in years, more than ever before. 00:08:35.300 --> 00:08:38.500 Finance teams are now asking the harder questions. 00:08:38.700 --> 00:08:41.300 The days of buying on capability alone. 00:08:41.300 --> 00:08:45.500 Hey, this product can do this, that, and the other are largely over. 00:08:46.000 --> 00:08:49.500 Value proof is now a procurement requirement. 00:08:50.700 --> 00:08:53.300 And the PVN is built for exactly that. 00:08:53.500 --> 00:08:58.000 Yes, so the question is, we are working in the analyst industry. 00:08:58.300 --> 00:09:00.200 We're looking at a technology market, 00:09:00.300 --> 00:09:03.900 at a buyer's market that is looking into these products. 00:09:04.400 --> 00:09:09.200 Where does this product, this PVN, actually fit in this industry? 00:09:09.200 --> 00:09:11.500 Yeah, where does it fit in? 00:09:11.900 --> 00:09:13.100 Which role does it play? 00:09:13.500 --> 00:09:14.500 Does it replace others? 00:09:14.600 --> 00:09:16.700 What is your notion here? 00:09:16.900 --> 00:09:18.400 Well, I think we're seeing a broader shift 00:09:18.400 --> 00:09:20.800 into how enterprise technology is evaluated. 00:09:21.800 --> 00:09:24.200 We're moving away from feature checklists 00:09:24.200 --> 00:09:26.600 and towards outcome-based purchasing. 00:09:26.800 --> 00:09:30.000 And the PVN is Kapplinger-Kohl's answer to that shift. 00:09:30.300 --> 00:09:34.400 It also reflects something important 00:09:34.500 --> 00:09:37.900 about the role of independent analysts in the current landscape. 00:09:37.900 --> 00:09:43.600 As AI-generated content and vendor-funded research proliferates, 00:09:44.200 --> 00:09:49.400 the premium on truly independent methodology-backed research goes up. 00:09:50.100 --> 00:09:53.700 That's our position, and the PVN doubles down on it. 00:09:53.800 --> 00:09:57.500 Longer term, we'd like to see the PVN as a format 00:09:57.500 --> 00:10:01.600 that can be applied across a full breadth of Kapplinger-Kohl coverage areas, 00:10:02.100 --> 00:10:05.800 from IBM to cybersecurity to cloud, 00:10:05.800 --> 00:10:09.800 and indeed to the intersection of AI and cybersecurity, 00:10:10.200 --> 00:10:12.800 which, as Matthias said, is my particular interest. 00:10:13.700 --> 00:10:16.700 We'd like to give buyers an economic evidence base 00:10:16.700 --> 00:10:19.700 to sit alongside our technical research. 00:10:21.000 --> 00:10:27.600 So you're countering the increasing amount of AI-produced stuff 00:10:27.600 --> 00:10:30.800 and lower quality with high quality and substance? 00:10:30.800 --> 00:10:36.000 I think that's a great argument for this product. 00:10:36.300 --> 00:10:38.400 So we are at the end already of our session 00:10:38.400 --> 00:10:41.800 because we just wanted to give a short introduction 00:10:41.800 --> 00:10:43.200 of what this actually is. 00:10:43.200 --> 00:10:45.400 Because it's new for us, we're test driving that. 00:10:45.800 --> 00:10:47.600 We think it drives well. 00:10:48.200 --> 00:10:52.700 So the question is, what should our listeners take away from that? 00:10:53.800 --> 00:10:55.800 Well, I think if you're a buyer 00:10:56.300 --> 00:10:59.100 and if you're evaluating enterprise technology, 00:10:59.100 --> 00:11:02.300 you should ask vendors whether their product 00:11:02.300 --> 00:11:05.900 has been independently economically validated. 00:11:07.200 --> 00:11:10.900 You can demand the evidence, not just the claim. 00:11:11.300 --> 00:11:15.300 If you're a vendor, then think about what it means 00:11:15.300 --> 00:11:20.300 to have your ROI story told by an independent third party. 00:11:21.200 --> 00:11:23.400 In a trust-scarce environment, 00:11:23.900 --> 00:11:28.200 and we know that cybersecurity and IAM is definitely that, 00:11:28.800 --> 00:11:31.200 that is a competitive differentiator. 00:11:31.500 --> 00:11:34.000 And of course, for us in Kappenger Coal, 00:11:35.000 --> 00:11:38.700 the PVN is a natural evolution of what we do. 00:11:39.200 --> 00:11:42.100 It's rigorous, independent, trusted research. 00:11:42.500 --> 00:11:44.900 And if there's one thing I want everyone to take away 00:11:44.900 --> 00:11:48.000 from this podcast, we're answering that question 00:11:48.000 --> 00:11:51.800 that matters most at the end of every buying cycle. 00:11:52.400 --> 00:11:53.500 Was it worth it? 00:11:53.500 --> 00:11:56.100 Now, I'm happy to say that the Manage Engine report 00:11:56.100 --> 00:11:58.800 is actually live now on our website 00:11:58.800 --> 00:12:02.900 and member subscribers are welcome to log in and view it. 00:12:03.000 --> 00:12:06.100 And it's a strong first example of what the format can do. 00:12:06.300 --> 00:12:08.100 And there's a lot more to come. 00:12:08.300 --> 00:12:11.900 So that it will be an ongoing production of this product. 00:12:12.000 --> 00:12:13.000 So there will be more. 00:12:13.200 --> 00:12:16.200 And I think there's really a huge interest 00:12:16.200 --> 00:12:20.400 in exactly that value calculation being made 00:12:20.400 --> 00:12:24.700 by a trusted third party and who is better equipped 00:12:24.700 --> 00:12:26.800 to provide such an analysis 00:12:26.800 --> 00:12:29.800 other than a neutral analyst company. 00:12:30.100 --> 00:12:32.800 So that I think this is where actually also, 00:12:33.000 --> 00:12:34.500 yeah, we can really shine 00:12:34.500 --> 00:12:36.600 and this product can really shine 00:12:36.600 --> 00:12:39.400 and add more value to the research formats 00:12:39.400 --> 00:12:41.800 that we already have that don't go away. 00:12:42.000 --> 00:12:44.900 It's an addition, it adds a different perspective. 00:12:46.300 --> 00:12:49.400 Final words from your side before we close down, 00:12:49.800 --> 00:12:53.700 what is the next thing to expect 00:12:53.700 --> 00:12:55.900 from the Product Value Navigator? 00:12:57.500 --> 00:13:00.200 More of the same, but in a good way? 00:13:01.100 --> 00:13:03.100 Well, I think there are several things on our roadmap, 00:13:03.700 --> 00:13:07.500 but yeah, just to name a quick sneak peek behind the curtain, 00:13:07.700 --> 00:13:10.200 I'd like to see an increased 00:13:10.200 --> 00:13:13.000 and more flexible financial modeling section. 00:13:13.200 --> 00:13:15.800 So myself in conduction with our dev team, 00:13:15.800 --> 00:13:18.900 we're looking at how we can provide a tool 00:13:19.000 --> 00:13:21.000 that allows you to do financial modeling 00:13:21.000 --> 00:13:23.400 based on the data that we've gathered 00:13:23.400 --> 00:13:26.600 and then allows you to fit the PVN 00:13:26.600 --> 00:13:29.000 to your own economic circumstances. 00:13:29.200 --> 00:13:31.900 I think other things we're looking at as well as that, 00:13:32.000 --> 00:13:33.300 then we are looking at, 00:13:33.500 --> 00:13:38.900 well, how do we get even more corroboration of our results? 00:13:39.200 --> 00:13:40.100 So clearly right now, 00:13:40.100 --> 00:13:44.200 we use a number of open intelligence sources, 00:13:44.300 --> 00:13:45.700 including J. Edgar, 00:13:46.000 --> 00:13:49.000 if it's a American publicly listed company, 00:13:49.000 --> 00:13:50.700 equivalent sources in Europe. 00:13:51.000 --> 00:13:54.300 We look at the certifications that a company has 00:13:54.300 --> 00:13:56.700 and we get those independently verified. 00:13:57.100 --> 00:14:00.100 But what I'd like to see is where we're actually 00:14:00.100 --> 00:14:03.600 drawing even more financial data, 00:14:04.000 --> 00:14:06.300 more from these established reference engines 00:14:06.300 --> 00:14:08.700 like Statistica, Dow Jones, and so forth. 00:14:08.800 --> 00:14:11.100 And of course, then the final thing, I think, 00:14:11.500 --> 00:14:12.900 and something that we are looking at 00:14:12.900 --> 00:14:17.000 is how can we then do some competitive analysis in depth, 00:14:17.100 --> 00:14:18.700 extending what we already provide, 00:14:18.700 --> 00:14:19.900 but actually going and saying, 00:14:20.200 --> 00:14:21.400 well, in this sector, 00:14:21.700 --> 00:14:24.400 this is how it rates against some other products. 00:14:25.500 --> 00:14:29.100 There's already so much value in this product value navigator, 00:14:29.400 --> 00:14:32.400 but this sounds like there will be even more coming up 00:14:32.500 --> 00:14:36.800 in the next months and years to evolve this product. 00:14:37.200 --> 00:14:38.800 So thank you very much, Jonathan, 00:14:39.000 --> 00:14:40.200 for being my guest today, 00:14:40.200 --> 00:14:42.600 for giving that look behind the curtain, 00:14:43.000 --> 00:14:44.200 the sneak peek into the future. 00:14:44.300 --> 00:14:46.100 And the future is already here 00:14:46.100 --> 00:14:49.000 because the product value navigator is live 00:14:49.000 --> 00:14:50.600 in its first incarnation. 00:14:51.100 --> 00:14:55.300 So as you said, everybody's welcome to have a look at that. 00:14:55.900 --> 00:15:00.000 And the subscribers, our registered users 00:15:00.500 --> 00:15:02.500 are invited to have a look at that. 00:15:02.900 --> 00:15:05.000 So thank you and looking forward 00:15:05.000 --> 00:15:07.000 to having you soon again here. 00:15:07.000 --> 00:15:11.700 We're planning episodes on AI and identity very soon. 00:15:11.800 --> 00:15:14.000 So that will be our next stop. 00:15:14.000 --> 00:15:16.100 And I think there will be a nice conversation 00:15:16.100 --> 00:15:18.900 also coming up with Martin Kupinger around that topic. 00:15:19.300 --> 00:15:20.800 And there you will join me as well. 00:15:21.200 --> 00:15:22.200 So looking forward to that. 00:15:22.200 --> 00:15:24.600 Up until then, thank you very much, Jonathan, 00:15:24.700 --> 00:15:25.700 for being my guest today. 00:15:26.000 --> 00:15:26.600 Thank you, Matthias. 00:15:45.600 --> 00:15:45.900 Thank you.