WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:20.000 Welcome to the KuppingerCole Analyst Chat. I'm your host. My name is Matthias Reinwarth. 00:00:20.000 --> 00:00:26.100 I'm an analyst and advisor at KuppingerCole Analysts. Today we have a very special episode 00:00:26.100 --> 00:00:31.400 of the KuppingerCole Analysts Chat. We are joined by somebody who has been our guest 00:00:31.900 --> 00:00:36.094 late last year in episode 435. I want to welcome 00:00:36.094 --> 00:00:40.200 Kashyap Timaraju and he will introduce himself. 00:00:40.200 --> 00:00:43.600 He's not an analyst, but he has a lot of interesting things to tell. 00:00:44.500 --> 00:00:49.000 Thanks, Matthias. It's a pleasure to be here again. Thank you again for this opportunity. 00:00:49.000 --> 00:00:53.500 As you mentioned, my name is Kashyap Timaraju. I'm the founder of Flowguard Institute, 00:00:53.500 --> 00:00:59.300 a research and training company dedicated to advancing human performance in cybersecurity. 00:00:59.300 --> 00:01:02.287 I'm also the postdoctoral researcher at TU 00:01:02.287 --> 00:01:05.700 Berlin. I'm really excited to be here, Matthias, 00:01:05.700 --> 00:01:10.800 and talk about some interesting things that we have lined up today. 00:01:10.800 --> 00:01:13.782 Right. We want to continue a discussion that 00:01:13.782 --> 00:01:16.900 we started, as I said, last year. There we had 00:01:16.900 --> 00:01:19.550 an episode, which was already a kind of alien 00:01:19.550 --> 00:01:22.200 episode for us because this is an interesting 00:01:22.200 --> 00:01:24.599 topic, but we usually talk about analyst stuff, 00:01:24.599 --> 00:01:27.100 tech stuff. But we did not do that way back then. 00:01:27.100 --> 00:01:30.392 We talked about burnout, about work-life 00:01:30.392 --> 00:01:35.000 imbalance when it comes to those who bear responsibility 00:01:35.000 --> 00:01:37.563 in cybersecurity. So that was an interesting 00:01:37.563 --> 00:01:40.300 episode. You continued the discussion also with 00:01:40.300 --> 00:01:43.663 webinars and presentations at our conferences. 00:01:43.663 --> 00:01:47.100 And you've made some significant progress here. 00:01:47.100 --> 00:01:52.400 But if we look back at this episode, what were the key takeaways for you from this episode 00:01:52.400 --> 00:02:00.600 where we can build upon for today? I think in the last episode, what we discussed was 00:02:00.600 --> 00:02:03.897 some of the factors or the reasons why many 00:02:03.897 --> 00:02:07.500 people in cybersecurity are experiencing mental 00:02:07.500 --> 00:02:10.683 health conditions like stress, burnout, anxiety, 00:02:10.683 --> 00:02:13.800 and so on. So we talked about how the evolution 00:02:13.800 --> 00:02:17.400 of technology, the digital transformation, how 00:02:17.400 --> 00:02:21.000 regulation and laws are actually impacting and 00:02:21.000 --> 00:02:26.400 adding to the stress. We talked also about some of the socio-technical factors like 00:02:26.400 --> 00:02:29.400 workload and time pressure and changing 00:02:29.400 --> 00:02:33.400 priorities and so on. I cited some research as well. 00:02:34.500 --> 00:02:37.077 And then I think Saurabh also mentioned, who was 00:02:37.077 --> 00:02:39.600 also on the podcast last time, who talked about 00:02:39.600 --> 00:02:42.882 trust, how that's important, and what the Mental 00:02:42.882 --> 00:02:46.300 Health and Cybersecurity Foundation is also doing. 00:02:46.300 --> 00:02:51.600 And we also encourage people to sign up to the charter, join the community of practice, 00:02:51.600 --> 00:02:56.500 and sort of trying to get the word out and spread awareness on this important issue. 00:02:56.500 --> 00:03:02.700 Because there's a lot of vendors out there who have a lot of solutions and so on, say that 00:03:02.700 --> 00:03:05.882 these solutions can potentially reduce burnout and 00:03:05.882 --> 00:03:09.000 so on. But it's not just about adding technology, 00:03:09.000 --> 00:03:15.300 but it's actually about the people behind the cybersecurity solutions and the teams. 00:03:15.300 --> 00:03:19.000 And I think that's why we spoke about their conditions last time. 00:03:19.600 --> 00:03:22.278 As I'm also an advisor, and of course we are 00:03:22.278 --> 00:03:25.200 dealing a lot with technology, but making things 00:03:25.200 --> 00:03:27.967 right, leveraging technology on the one hand 00:03:27.967 --> 00:03:31.300 while having proper processes and mechanisms in place 00:03:31.300 --> 00:03:33.784 is also something that is very close to me. 00:03:33.784 --> 00:03:36.500 So to make sure that the soft factors of people 00:03:36.500 --> 00:03:38.652 are really also taken into account. And when 00:03:38.652 --> 00:03:41.000 it comes to health, when it comes to well-being, 00:03:41.000 --> 00:03:43.374 I think that's even more important. So it's 00:03:43.374 --> 00:03:46.300 really something that absolutely rings a bell for me, 00:03:46.300 --> 00:03:53.400 because this is really an important factor. Always, I say, 30% technology and 70% doing 00:03:53.400 --> 00:03:56.989 things right, processes, policies, mechanisms, 00:03:56.989 --> 00:04:00.500 and people really making sure that leadership 00:04:00.500 --> 00:04:06.600 understands what this all means to their teams, to their employees, to their colleagues. 00:04:06.600 --> 00:04:07.100 Absolutely. 00:04:08.100 --> 00:04:11.300 Yeah. So when we continue that discussion, and 00:04:11.300 --> 00:04:14.500 I think you also continued your research work, 00:04:14.500 --> 00:04:17.900 it has a long title, but there's a lot of stuff packed into there. 00:04:17.900 --> 00:04:18.400 Yeah. 00:04:18.400 --> 00:04:21.400 Without human performance in security operations, 00:04:21.400 --> 00:04:24.270 the survey on burnout, well-being and flow state 00:04:24.270 --> 00:04:27.200 among practitioners, objectives and significance. 00:04:27.200 --> 00:04:33.300 That was the long title that I had. It's a really interesting study that I did read, 00:04:33.300 --> 00:04:36.364 and I really read it wise to make sure that I 00:04:36.364 --> 00:04:39.700 fully get the point. It's a survey to start with. 00:04:39.700 --> 00:04:43.600 It's really based on information that you gathered from practitioners. 00:04:44.200 --> 00:04:48.157 Yeah. So the title is indeed long, and I think 00:04:48.157 --> 00:04:52.200 it's sort of two parts to it. So the first part 00:04:52.200 --> 00:04:54.676 is about, we're talking about human performance 00:04:54.676 --> 00:04:57.100 in cybersecurity. And then the second part is, 00:04:57.100 --> 00:04:59.657 how do we sort of measure this? And that's 00:04:59.657 --> 00:05:02.700 what the paper was about. It's about a survey that 00:05:02.700 --> 00:05:05.551 we conducted among practitioners to measure 00:05:05.551 --> 00:05:08.800 the current state of mental health in some sense. 00:05:08.800 --> 00:05:11.800 I think the paper is, in addition to the survey, 00:05:11.800 --> 00:05:14.800 it's also about putting our vision out there and 00:05:14.800 --> 00:05:21.400 what we want to do, because what we believe is that we can transform security operations 00:05:21.400 --> 00:05:25.276 and outcomes and the performance of the team by 00:05:25.276 --> 00:05:29.400 actually focusing on the well-being and engagement 00:05:29.400 --> 00:05:35.000 of the team. Because there's a research in software engineering, I think there's also 00:05:35.000 --> 00:05:37.627 something I mentioned in the last episode called 00:05:37.627 --> 00:05:40.200 the developer experience, where they identified 00:05:40.200 --> 00:05:44.000 that developer productivity actually depends on 00:05:44.000 --> 00:05:47.800 the well-being of the developers and them being 00:05:47.800 --> 00:05:50.800 able to get into the so-called flow state, which 00:05:50.800 --> 00:05:53.800 is the state where we're completely immersed. We 00:05:53.800 --> 00:05:56.804 lose sense of time. It feels effortless. We're 00:05:56.804 --> 00:06:00.200 not worried about what others are thinking about us. 00:06:00.200 --> 00:06:07.500 We have the sense of control. It's challenging, but not too challenging. And we have 00:06:07.500 --> 00:06:09.997 some feedback where we know what we're doing is 00:06:09.997 --> 00:06:12.600 actually going in the right direction or not. And 00:06:13.000 --> 00:06:20.100 this paper also measures the capability of practitioners to be able to get into 00:06:20.100 --> 00:06:24.800 the flow state. So that's a brief introduction into the paper, I would say. 00:06:24.800 --> 00:06:31.000 And the motivation also for this work came about because there's a lot of 00:06:31.000 --> 00:06:33.687 reports out there by the various market 00:06:33.687 --> 00:06:37.200 research companies and so on. And they've conducted 00:06:37.200 --> 00:06:39.033 surveys asking people if they experience 00:06:39.033 --> 00:06:41.600 burnout, if they're stressed out, and so on. And to some 00:06:41.600 --> 00:06:43.824 degree, this is true. People answer these 00:06:43.824 --> 00:06:46.700 questions, and these are valid in some sense. But our 00:06:46.700 --> 00:06:49.593 motivation was to actually collect scientific 00:06:49.593 --> 00:06:53.000 data. So we actually used questionnaires developed by 00:06:53.000 --> 00:06:55.532 psychologists and have validated that these 00:06:55.532 --> 00:06:58.300 questionnaires are actual indicators of certain 00:06:58.300 --> 00:07:01.584 conditions, such as burnout, well-being, and flow 00:07:01.584 --> 00:07:04.800 state. And I think this is also one of the major 00:07:04.800 --> 00:07:06.874 contributions of the paper is that we 00:07:06.874 --> 00:07:09.900 collected data using these questionnaires and actually 00:07:09.900 --> 00:07:17.700 identified the conditions people are experiencing in cybersecurity. So we 00:07:17.700 --> 00:07:20.377 actually had 25 participants, but only 19 of them 00:07:20.377 --> 00:07:23.000 were really involved in security operations. And 00:07:23.000 --> 00:07:25.938 the reason we focused on security operations is 00:07:25.938 --> 00:07:29.000 because we noticed that this is actually a really 00:07:29.000 --> 00:07:31.756 high-pressure, high-demand, highly stressful 00:07:31.756 --> 00:07:34.700 environment based on the articles that we found 00:07:34.700 --> 00:07:37.555 online. And that was one of the other reasons 00:07:37.555 --> 00:07:40.600 why we decided to focus specifically on security 00:07:40.600 --> 00:07:43.250 operations compared to some other activities in 00:07:43.250 --> 00:07:45.900 security. Right. So we have this questionnaire, 00:07:45.900 --> 00:07:48.578 which is scientifically accurate, and it really 00:07:48.578 --> 00:07:51.200 lays a good foundation. On the other hand, you 00:07:51.200 --> 00:07:55.116 have a, as of now, not really limited, but a 00:07:55.116 --> 00:07:59.300 smaller number of participants. So 19 out of 25 00:08:00.200 --> 00:08:06.600 is already a good basis, but it's not representative in any way. Nevertheless, 00:08:07.400 --> 00:08:10.724 we will talk about the results later anyway, 00:08:10.724 --> 00:08:14.200 but if you summarize that, how do your results 00:08:14.200 --> 00:08:20.800 differ from these out-there market research company-produced results? Where are the deltas 00:08:20.800 --> 00:08:25.700 where you add value to it? Yeah, so that's actually a really good question because 00:08:26.600 --> 00:08:32.500 there's a lot of research that talks about burnout. What we did identify is that is indeed 00:08:32.500 --> 00:08:35.841 a phenomenon that we observed. There were many 00:08:35.841 --> 00:08:39.400 people who, there were at least six out of the 19 00:08:39.400 --> 00:08:45.000 who fell under the high burnout category. Of course, there could be more, but what we also 00:08:45.000 --> 00:08:49.700 observed is the number of participants who answered the burnout questions were actually 00:08:50.400 --> 00:08:53.736 considerably less compared to the questions on 00:08:53.736 --> 00:08:57.000 wellbeing and flow state. So when it comes to 00:08:57.000 --> 00:09:00.100 stress and burnout, we observed the same thing 00:09:00.100 --> 00:09:03.200 that some of the market research and the other 00:09:03.200 --> 00:09:06.850 surveys that are there are. On the other hand, 00:09:06.850 --> 00:09:10.500 what we also, I think what we really added was 00:09:10.500 --> 00:09:13.389 to look at wellbeing and flow because most of 00:09:13.389 --> 00:09:16.600 the research out there is focusing on the negative 00:09:16.600 --> 00:09:18.557 aspects, but they've not really looked at what 00:09:18.557 --> 00:09:20.600 their current state of wellbeing is and are they 00:09:20.600 --> 00:09:23.933 really engaged? And this is where we added 00:09:23.933 --> 00:09:27.900 real value to the research and we identified which 00:09:27.900 --> 00:09:30.679 dimensions of wellbeing people are faring well 00:09:30.679 --> 00:09:33.700 in and not. They also correlated with the burnout. 00:09:33.700 --> 00:09:39.200 So when it comes to burnout, people feel exhausted. Whereas with the wellbeing, we noticed 00:09:39.200 --> 00:09:41.666 that their mental and physical health are also 00:09:41.666 --> 00:09:44.400 not so good, but they actually score higher on some 00:09:44.400 --> 00:09:48.700 other aspects like financial and material stability. So people are actually quite happy 00:09:48.700 --> 00:09:53.400 with the compensation they receive. And then the flow state, I think, is something really 00:09:54.100 --> 00:09:56.474 value-add over here where we see people are 00:09:56.474 --> 00:09:59.400 really engaged and they have certain aspects that let 00:09:59.400 --> 00:10:02.122 them get into the flow state, but there are also 00:10:02.122 --> 00:10:04.900 certain aspects that might need to be improved on 00:10:04.900 --> 00:10:10.200 or worked upon or changed in some sense. I really love that term flow state and 00:10:10.200 --> 00:10:13.500 everybody actually knows what you mean. So the 00:10:13.500 --> 00:10:16.800 moment when you're really immersed in the work 00:10:16.800 --> 00:10:20.456 and that you don't really care about time and 00:10:20.456 --> 00:10:24.600 food and drink and everything else. And in my spare 00:10:24.600 --> 00:10:26.974 time, I'm a musician. I know that mainly from 00:10:26.974 --> 00:10:29.400 there with creating music, composing music and 00:10:29.400 --> 00:10:31.290 doing that, that usually leads to the 00:10:31.290 --> 00:10:34.100 situation of where did the time go and what happened in 00:10:34.100 --> 00:10:41.000 the meantime. If we look at that from the perspective that you have covered, so really 00:10:41.000 --> 00:10:44.150 having this flow state during day-to-day work and 00:10:44.150 --> 00:10:47.300 really leveraging that flow state for improvement 00:10:47.300 --> 00:10:50.874 of the results and the wellbeing of the people, 00:10:50.874 --> 00:10:54.600 what are the obstacles or how can you help people 00:10:54.600 --> 00:10:57.288 or give them guidance to get into that flow 00:10:57.288 --> 00:11:00.600 state, at least for a limited amount of time per day? 00:11:00.600 --> 00:11:04.309 Is there a recipe? Are there known obstacles? 00:11:04.309 --> 00:11:08.100 It would be nice if we had a manual that said, 00:11:08.100 --> 00:11:10.301 you know, step one, step two, step three, and 00:11:10.301 --> 00:11:12.600 then you're in flow state. Of course, in a nice 00:11:12.600 --> 00:11:18.600 lab setting that might be possible and certain activities are more conducive to flow than 00:11:18.600 --> 00:11:22.817 others. But there are certain concepts that we 00:11:22.817 --> 00:11:27.400 can sort of base our thoughts on or our actions on 00:11:27.400 --> 00:11:31.600 to be able to get into the flow states. I think the most important aspect 00:11:31.600 --> 00:11:34.450 to be able to get into the flow state is what's 00:11:34.450 --> 00:11:37.300 known as the flow channel. And this is choosing 00:11:37.300 --> 00:11:40.516 or whatever activity we have, that activity has 00:11:40.516 --> 00:11:43.800 a particular challenge level to it, a challenge, 00:11:43.800 --> 00:11:46.703 and we have certain skills to that particular 00:11:46.703 --> 00:11:49.800 activity. To be able to get into the flow state, 00:11:49.800 --> 00:11:52.934 what's really important is the activity is not 00:11:52.934 --> 00:11:56.000 too challenging. So it should slightly exceed 00:11:56.000 --> 00:12:00.500 our skill level. Because if the task or the activity is too challenging, it makes us feel 00:12:00.500 --> 00:12:02.756 anxious or frustrated. And if it's not 00:12:02.756 --> 00:12:06.200 challenging enough, it feels boring. And so it's all about 00:12:06.200 --> 00:12:08.508 finding this sort of this sweet spot that's 00:12:08.508 --> 00:12:11.300 going to actually help us get into the flow channel. 00:12:11.300 --> 00:12:13.513 And once we know that, then we can sort of 00:12:13.513 --> 00:12:16.200 leverage that, you know, if a task is, for example, 00:12:16.200 --> 00:12:18.822 really challenging, what can we do to bring the 00:12:18.822 --> 00:12:21.500 challenge level down? Or if it's kind of boring, 00:12:21.500 --> 00:12:26.100 what can we do to bump up the challenge level? And this is actually an aspect I'm really 00:12:26.100 --> 00:12:33.300 interested in, because I think LLMs are a very interesting technology that could perhaps 00:12:33.300 --> 00:12:36.150 help us. You know, I think we're seeing a lot of 00:12:36.150 --> 00:12:39.000 this already with how people are able to code so 00:12:39.000 --> 00:12:41.419 much better. I mean, I've been using this and 00:12:41.419 --> 00:12:44.000 coding is like so much faster. It's kind of like 00:12:44.000 --> 00:12:47.250 just debugging it, as long as we know what we want 00:12:47.250 --> 00:12:50.500 to do, right? So this makes something challenging, 00:12:50.500 --> 00:12:55.300 less challenging, and the barrier to entry increases. And so people can actually start 00:12:55.300 --> 00:12:58.550 engaging. And I think that could also be done to 00:12:58.550 --> 00:13:01.800 make something boring, also more interesting. So 00:13:02.300 --> 00:13:04.850 many people don't like writing or reading and 00:13:04.850 --> 00:13:07.400 summarizing stuff, right? So again, LLMs over 00:13:07.400 --> 00:13:12.700 here can make something very boring, more interesting by summarizing text for them, 00:13:12.700 --> 00:13:16.600 so that they can actually then think of how this could be used, for example, in 00:13:17.400 --> 00:13:19.774 cyber threat intelligence, or actually connecting 00:13:19.774 --> 00:13:22.100 the dots between different threat reports and so 00:13:22.100 --> 00:13:24.622 on. So I think these are at least a couple of 00:13:24.622 --> 00:13:27.200 concepts that one can use to be able to get in 00:13:27.200 --> 00:13:29.333 the flow state. I think other aspects of 00:13:29.333 --> 00:13:32.000 being able to get in the flow state are looking at 00:13:33.500 --> 00:13:39.000 what enables one to get into the flow state. So do we have enough feedback? Do we have a 00:13:39.000 --> 00:13:42.166 sense of control? I think the sense of control, 00:13:42.166 --> 00:13:45.400 autonomy, agency is very important. This is also 00:13:45.400 --> 00:13:48.847 something I mentioned last time. So reframing 00:13:48.847 --> 00:13:52.600 is one way of doing that. Speaking with our team, 00:13:52.600 --> 00:13:55.588 our managers, our supervisors, or whoever it is, 00:13:55.588 --> 00:13:58.700 leadership, to be able to have a sense of autonomy 00:13:58.700 --> 00:14:01.291 in the work that we do helps us get into the 00:14:01.291 --> 00:14:04.000 flow state. There's also what's another really 00:14:04.000 --> 00:14:06.176 important aspect of being able to get in the 00:14:06.176 --> 00:14:08.600 flow state is the so-called autotelic experience, 00:14:08.600 --> 00:14:15.700 which is doing it for the joy of doing something rather than doing it for the outcome. 00:14:15.700 --> 00:14:18.894 And that might be a slightly harder thing for 00:14:18.894 --> 00:14:22.300 people to maybe apply in their work, but I think 00:14:22.300 --> 00:14:24.857 if people are really aligned with their 00:14:24.857 --> 00:14:28.200 values, their meaning, their purpose, and the goals 00:14:28.200 --> 00:14:30.451 that they have, why they're doing this, and if 00:14:30.451 --> 00:14:32.800 this is going in the right direction, that gives 00:14:32.800 --> 00:14:35.400 them the sense of reward. For example, when I do 00:14:35.400 --> 00:14:38.000 my research, of course, it's painful. It's hard. 00:14:38.000 --> 00:14:41.250 There are things that I don't like, but there 00:14:41.250 --> 00:14:44.500 is this sort of rewarding feeling that we get 00:14:44.500 --> 00:14:47.671 by actually doing the research or going 00:14:47.671 --> 00:14:51.900 through logs or finding a true positive from a bunch 00:14:51.900 --> 00:14:55.331 of false positives, for example. So I think 00:14:55.331 --> 00:14:59.400 this is sort of like having that so-called what one 00:14:59.400 --> 00:15:02.311 of the founders of flow, Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi, 00:15:02.311 --> 00:15:05.400 said is to have this so-called autotelic personality 00:15:05.400 --> 00:15:12.000 where we just do things because it feels rewarding and joyful to us. If I think of other 00:15:12.000 --> 00:15:14.870 aspects, I mentioned goals. I think clear 00:15:14.870 --> 00:15:18.300 goals are also really important that we know what 00:15:18.300 --> 00:15:24.100 we're doing and why we're doing it. I think there's another really important aspect to it, 00:15:24.100 --> 00:15:27.687 which is concentration, to be able to completely 00:15:27.687 --> 00:15:31.200 focus on what we're doing. And what we noticed, 00:15:31.200 --> 00:15:37.700 at least in the survey that we conducted, is that the participants scored quite high when 00:15:37.700 --> 00:15:40.746 it came to the challenge to skill ratio, the 00:15:40.746 --> 00:15:44.000 feedback, and the autotelic personality. So the 00:15:44.600 --> 00:15:48.795 feeling of the activity being highly rewarding. 00:15:48.795 --> 00:15:52.900 But when it came to concentration and autonomy 00:15:52.900 --> 00:15:58.600 and feelings of self-consciousness, that is worrying about what others might be thinking 00:15:58.600 --> 00:16:02.413 of them. These were aspects of flow that the 00:16:02.413 --> 00:16:06.400 participants actually scored low on. And I was 00:16:06.400 --> 00:16:09.624 actually speaking with a psychologist, a 00:16:09.624 --> 00:16:14.300 researcher who did her PhD on psychological safety. And it 00:16:14.300 --> 00:16:20.800 seems like feelings of self-consciousness and worry about what others might be thinking or 00:16:20.800 --> 00:16:23.950 sense of insecurity, self-doubt, and so on are 00:16:23.950 --> 00:16:27.100 quite linked with psychological safety. And so 00:16:28.100 --> 00:16:30.887 what we mentioned in the paper is to be able 00:16:30.887 --> 00:16:33.800 to get in the flow state, especially with work 00:16:33.800 --> 00:16:39.000 activities, psychological safety is actually really important. So people should be able to 00:16:39.000 --> 00:16:41.800 feel comfortable saying things that's on 00:16:41.800 --> 00:16:45.300 their mind, being able to make mistakes and not be 00:16:45.300 --> 00:16:47.642 punished for that. And to have this so-called 00:16:47.642 --> 00:16:50.400 just culture is also, I think, really important to be 00:16:50.400 --> 00:16:52.554 able to get in the flow state. I think that's a 00:16:52.554 --> 00:16:54.800 long answer I gave. I said many things. Hopefully 00:16:54.800 --> 00:16:57.079 that answers your question to some degree. 00:16:57.079 --> 00:16:59.900 Yeah, absolutely. And I think the more you explained 00:16:59.900 --> 00:17:02.423 that, the more it became clear to me that this 00:17:02.423 --> 00:17:05.000 is also a real important aspect for leadership, 00:17:05.000 --> 00:17:07.711 for culture within an organization. This is 00:17:07.711 --> 00:17:10.800 only partially something that somebody can do for 00:17:10.800 --> 00:17:13.166 themselves, but they really need the support 00:17:13.166 --> 00:17:15.800 within the organization, within their leadership, 00:17:15.800 --> 00:17:18.200 within their colleague, with their team to allow 00:17:18.200 --> 00:17:20.600 for everything that you just described, for this 00:17:20.600 --> 00:17:26.100 culture of being allowed to fail and identify mistakes and correct them and get better and 00:17:26.100 --> 00:17:28.950 get into the flow. The leadership involvement 00:17:28.950 --> 00:17:31.800 is really important, right? Yeah, absolutely. 00:17:31.800 --> 00:17:34.579 I think also if we think of it in the survey 00:17:34.579 --> 00:17:37.800 that we did, we were measuring individual flow, but 00:17:37.800 --> 00:17:42.400 there's group flow and team flow as well. And these are also aspects that we're 00:17:42.400 --> 00:17:45.433 really interested in, because at work or as a 00:17:45.433 --> 00:17:48.600 security team, it's not just one person working 00:17:48.600 --> 00:17:54.600 on something. It's a whole team that actually works towards defending an organization or 00:17:56.800 --> 00:17:59.918 creating detection logic or going through 00:17:59.918 --> 00:18:04.100 reports and so on. And so there needs to be this sense, 00:18:04.100 --> 00:18:10.900 collective purpose and shared goals, a collective shared goal that everyone works towards. 00:18:10.900 --> 00:18:12.987 And I think this is also something we're 00:18:12.987 --> 00:18:15.700 really interested in looking at. And so what are the 00:18:15.700 --> 00:18:19.438 conditions required or necessary to put in 00:18:19.438 --> 00:18:23.800 place so that the entire team, the security team, 00:18:23.800 --> 00:18:27.080 can get into flow? And like you mentioned, it's 00:18:27.080 --> 00:18:30.500 leadership. Not only it's about making them aware 00:18:30.500 --> 00:18:33.485 of this, but also taking action to be able to 00:18:33.485 --> 00:18:37.000 sort of provide a conducive environment for this. And 00:18:37.000 --> 00:18:41.602 I think that can be a huge opportunity, because 00:18:41.602 --> 00:18:46.400 if a company or a team or an organization is able 00:18:46.400 --> 00:18:48.893 to adopt this perspective and this 00:18:48.893 --> 00:18:53.000 philosophy, they're not buying any technology. So you're 00:18:53.000 --> 00:18:58.200 not spending hundreds or millions of euros or dollars to do this. You're actually changing 00:18:58.200 --> 00:19:02.600 the way you work and actually getting the benefits and improving our security without 00:19:02.600 --> 00:19:07.400 actually adding new technology. And this is also something that we really believe in. So 00:19:08.300 --> 00:19:11.771 transforming productivity and well-being and 00:19:11.771 --> 00:19:15.400 outcomes through non-technological approaches. 00:19:15.400 --> 00:19:18.219 I fully understand that. And I think it makes 00:19:18.219 --> 00:19:21.100 perfect sense because there are usually enough 00:19:21.100 --> 00:19:26.800 tools around, but leveraging those apart from the first 20 percent that you typically use 00:19:26.800 --> 00:19:32.500 and getting better in deploying those tools and making teams work much more efficiently, 00:19:32.500 --> 00:19:34.924 I think that's the way to move forward here as 00:19:34.924 --> 00:19:37.400 well. Usually enough money is spent on tooling. 00:19:37.900 --> 00:19:44.200 But before we go into more details of the results of the survey, a question of data 00:19:44.200 --> 00:19:49.800 availability for you. So more data would be helpful. And that could be the time for you to 00:19:49.800 --> 00:19:53.262 also maybe call for participation for the 00:19:53.262 --> 00:19:57.400 survey, right? Absolutely. Yeah, I think firstly, 00:19:57.400 --> 00:20:03.800 we were really grateful that we got 19 to 25 participants. But as you mentioned earlier, 00:20:03.800 --> 00:20:07.080 that's not statistically significant. And so if 00:20:07.080 --> 00:20:10.500 we can actually get more people to participate in 00:20:10.500 --> 00:20:16.000 this, this actually provides us with a better understanding of what the current state is 00:20:16.000 --> 00:20:19.850 in the industry among practitioners. And it will 00:20:19.850 --> 00:20:23.700 also help us and participants understand what we 00:20:23.700 --> 00:20:26.555 can do about it and start thinking of ways to 00:20:26.555 --> 00:20:29.600 improve well-being, improve flow state. But also 00:20:29.600 --> 00:20:32.879 what can we do to prevent people from entering 00:20:32.879 --> 00:20:36.300 stressful environments? What can we do to change 00:20:36.300 --> 00:20:39.277 our environments and the conditions that we 00:20:39.277 --> 00:20:42.600 work in to reduce stress? Could be like reducing 00:20:42.600 --> 00:20:48.200 workload and so on. But I think this is really critical. If I can make a request to the 00:20:48.200 --> 00:20:51.383 listeners today, please participate in our 00:20:51.383 --> 00:20:55.400 survey. All your data is absolutely private. We don't 00:20:55.400 --> 00:21:02.500 share it with anybody. We have a data protection policy and so on. And we are dedicated to 00:21:03.400 --> 00:21:11.100 privacy and protection of your personal PII. So I think I've shared the QR code with you, 00:21:11.100 --> 00:21:13.574 Matthias, so we can put that up in a link to the 00:21:13.574 --> 00:21:16.100 survey as well. And we'd be really grateful if we 00:21:16.100 --> 00:21:18.400 could get more people to take part in our survey. 00:21:18.400 --> 00:21:20.700 I think the QR code, it's just showing right now. 00:21:20.700 --> 00:21:23.689 So please just use it and get in touch with them. 00:21:23.689 --> 00:21:26.800 I know this is a step to take, but maybe you really 00:21:26.800 --> 00:21:33.300 want to support the work of CACHE to really improve the overall databases for the survey 00:21:33.300 --> 00:21:39.000 and to, in the end, consolidate, substantiate the results of the survey. So first of all, 00:21:39.000 --> 00:21:42.900 thank you to all of those who will contribute to that. It's really a stretch, I know, 00:21:42.900 --> 00:21:45.615 but it will really be helpful. Going back to 00:21:45.615 --> 00:21:48.700 the results, when it comes to what we've discussed 00:21:48.700 --> 00:21:54.600 as of now, it's really just the nice side of the results of getting into the flow, 00:21:54.600 --> 00:21:57.400 getting to better results, better interaction, 00:21:57.400 --> 00:22:00.200 and focusing on what people can really do well 00:22:00.200 --> 00:22:05.100 and skip the boring stuff. If you look at the other side of things, the burnout part, 00:22:05.100 --> 00:22:10.200 do you learn in understanding burnout and security operations from the survey? 00:22:10.200 --> 00:22:13.067 So in the survey, we measured burnout using 00:22:13.067 --> 00:22:16.200 what's called the Copenhagen burnout inventory. 00:22:16.200 --> 00:22:19.750 And so this particular questionnaire measures 00:22:19.750 --> 00:22:23.300 a burnout in terms of exhaustion. And they've 00:22:23.300 --> 00:22:26.468 categorized burnout into three parts. So personal 00:22:26.468 --> 00:22:29.700 burnout, work burnout, and client-related burnout. 00:22:30.300 --> 00:22:33.813 And what we noticed is participants experienced, 00:22:33.813 --> 00:22:37.400 most of the participants firstly answered most of 00:22:37.400 --> 00:22:40.785 the work and personal-related burnout questions. 00:22:40.785 --> 00:22:44.100 There were rather fewer people who took part in 00:22:44.100 --> 00:22:46.715 the client-related burnout because not many 00:22:46.715 --> 00:22:50.000 people work with clients. And what we observed is that 00:22:50.000 --> 00:22:57.000 this feeling of tiredness and exhaustion is quite prevalent. And this is either from 00:22:57.000 --> 00:23:00.028 work-related activities or in their personal 00:23:00.028 --> 00:23:03.400 life as well. The reasons for why they feel this, 00:23:03.400 --> 00:23:06.937 that was not measured in the survey, that would 00:23:06.937 --> 00:23:10.700 require further research. However, there have been 00:23:10.700 --> 00:23:13.504 a couple of papers published that have tried 00:23:13.504 --> 00:23:16.500 to understand what are the factors that lead to 00:23:16.500 --> 00:23:19.600 burnout. I think I mentioned this last time where 00:23:19.600 --> 00:23:22.700 they looked at incident responders and identified 00:23:22.700 --> 00:23:25.600 some of the factors over there. However, in our 00:23:25.600 --> 00:23:28.500 paper, we were purely focused on a quantitative 00:23:28.500 --> 00:23:31.511 approach, which is using the survey. I think 00:23:31.511 --> 00:23:35.000 what we want to do as sort of our future work is to 00:23:35.000 --> 00:23:37.887 take this forward and answer the question that 00:23:37.887 --> 00:23:40.900 you have exactly posed to us is to, what are the 00:23:40.900 --> 00:23:44.017 reasons or what are the socio-technical factors 00:23:44.017 --> 00:23:47.400 that are leading to burnout? And this is, to answer 00:23:47.400 --> 00:23:50.300 this question is not easy because it depends on 00:23:50.300 --> 00:23:53.200 the individual, it depends on the organization, 00:23:53.200 --> 00:23:56.089 it depends on various aspects like the workload 00:23:56.089 --> 00:23:59.100 they face. And what we want to do over here is to 00:23:59.100 --> 00:24:02.379 apply a sort of like a mixed method. So can we 00:24:02.379 --> 00:24:05.800 combine surveys with interviews, speak to people 00:24:05.800 --> 00:24:09.461 and identify what are their reasons or what are 00:24:09.461 --> 00:24:13.200 the factors that are actually leading to burnout 00:24:13.200 --> 00:24:16.900 for them? And to do this across different, let's 00:24:16.900 --> 00:24:20.600 say security operation centers, but also between 00:24:20.600 --> 00:24:23.404 different roles because incident responders 00:24:23.404 --> 00:24:26.600 might have a different workload and stress levels 00:24:26.600 --> 00:24:29.248 compared to say someone working in threat 00:24:29.248 --> 00:24:32.800 hunting versus someone in red teaming and so on. And so 00:24:33.800 --> 00:24:36.672 this is actually an aspect that we're really, 00:24:36.672 --> 00:24:39.800 really interested in looking at as part of future 00:24:39.800 --> 00:24:43.067 work. But what we can say from the survey is that 00:24:43.067 --> 00:24:46.400 exhaustion is definitely what they're feeling, but 00:24:46.400 --> 00:24:48.797 why they're feeling it is not really answered 00:24:48.797 --> 00:24:51.300 through our research. Right, and if you look at 00:24:51.300 --> 00:24:54.277 your future research directions that you're 00:24:54.277 --> 00:24:57.600 working on, do you think that the methodological 00:24:57.600 --> 00:25:04.200 and also the theoretical foundation for this specific area of burnout and flow in cyber 00:25:04.200 --> 00:25:06.850 security is there already a good enough basis or 00:25:06.850 --> 00:25:09.500 is this also some groundwork that needs to still 00:25:09.500 --> 00:25:12.683 be approved? Yeah, so there has been to date one 00:25:12.683 --> 00:25:15.800 paper that actually came up with the theory for 00:25:15.800 --> 00:25:19.200 burnout in security operation centers and this was 00:25:19.200 --> 00:25:22.600 done about 12 to 15 years back. And I actually met 00:25:22.600 --> 00:25:25.646 with one of the professors who was part of 00:25:25.646 --> 00:25:29.200 that work and recently when I presented our paper 00:25:29.200 --> 00:25:35.900 last month. I believe it's actually time to actually revise that and also look at it more 00:25:35.900 --> 00:25:38.609 broadly. There is actually really, apart from 00:25:38.609 --> 00:25:41.800 that one theory, there is no real work out there that 00:25:41.800 --> 00:25:45.150 describes, provides a theory or an explanation for 00:25:45.150 --> 00:25:48.500 why this is happening. There are, like I mentioned 00:25:48.500 --> 00:25:50.657 earlier, there are different reports out here that 00:25:50.657 --> 00:25:52.900 say, you know, I'm feeling stressed because of this, 00:25:52.900 --> 00:26:00.300 because of that, but there's no fundamental theory or a foundation on which 00:26:00.300 --> 00:26:03.062 this is based upon. And this is something we 00:26:03.062 --> 00:26:06.200 strongly believe needs to be looked at, especially 00:26:06.200 --> 00:26:09.575 using some kind of scientific methods. If we, 00:26:09.575 --> 00:26:13.400 for the final part, look into operationalizing your 00:26:13.400 --> 00:26:15.950 findings. So what I think many of the audience 00:26:15.950 --> 00:26:18.500 out there, they are really just thinking about 00:26:18.500 --> 00:26:22.061 what can I do to help my team? How can I maybe 00:26:22.061 --> 00:26:25.700 even identify signals that things are not going 00:26:25.700 --> 00:26:31.900 wrong or people are subject to too much stress and that should be improved? What are some, 00:26:31.900 --> 00:26:34.422 I don't know if this is possible, some hints, 00:26:34.422 --> 00:26:37.000 some guidelines, some recommendations that the 00:26:37.000 --> 00:26:40.297 individual or some team leads, management, 00:26:40.297 --> 00:26:44.300 culture-shaping people would like to take from you? 00:26:44.300 --> 00:26:48.138 Is there anything you can share? Yeah, so I 00:26:48.138 --> 00:26:52.600 want to say a few things here. I want to also just 00:26:52.600 --> 00:26:54.975 continue my answer from before and then sort of 00:26:54.975 --> 00:26:57.400 get into the interventions part, because I think 00:26:57.400 --> 00:26:59.650 it's sort of, it's all connected. So what I was 00:26:59.650 --> 00:27:01.900 mentioning earlier was about coming up with the 00:27:01.900 --> 00:27:04.352 theory that explains the socio-technical 00:27:04.352 --> 00:27:07.600 factors that lead to burnout and security operations. 00:27:07.600 --> 00:27:14.200 I think that's a really important foundation to start with. And then how this is actually 00:27:14.200 --> 00:27:17.480 going to bring about change is by showing 00:27:17.480 --> 00:27:21.400 what impact that has on the security, on security 00:27:21.400 --> 00:27:24.424 outcomes. So how does people actually being 00:27:24.424 --> 00:27:27.800 stressed out and burnt out impacting, let's say, 00:27:27.800 --> 00:27:31.727 security KPIs? There is really no work out there 00:27:31.727 --> 00:27:35.900 that describes this or has shown this relationship. 00:27:36.700 --> 00:27:39.073 Like I mentioned, there was a theory that described 00:27:39.073 --> 00:27:41.400 burnout, but its impact was not described. So this 00:27:41.400 --> 00:27:43.914 is also something we're really interested in 00:27:43.914 --> 00:27:46.600 working on. Then once we know this, we can then 00:27:46.600 --> 00:27:50.138 start to come up with interventions on what we 00:27:50.138 --> 00:27:53.600 can do to reduce stress, prevent burnout, and 00:27:53.600 --> 00:27:56.900 improve our well-being and flow stage. So that 00:27:56.900 --> 00:28:00.200 would be like a really targeted and methodical 00:28:00.200 --> 00:28:07.300 way of approaching this, because I think what's important is to choose the right factors 00:28:07.300 --> 00:28:09.797 to address, because if we don't know this, then 00:28:09.797 --> 00:28:12.400 we're sort of just guessing and sort of trying to 00:28:12.400 --> 00:28:15.616 address something that might not actually be the 00:28:15.616 --> 00:28:18.900 root cause for these issues. Nonetheless, I think 00:28:18.900 --> 00:28:21.304 people have a pretty good idea sort of 00:28:21.304 --> 00:28:25.100 intuitively based on their experience in an organization and 00:28:25.100 --> 00:28:27.989 what they're working on that might be impacting 00:28:27.989 --> 00:28:31.000 them. So I think workload is pretty huge. This is 00:28:31.000 --> 00:28:33.764 what some research has already pointed at. A lot 00:28:33.764 --> 00:28:36.700 of people in some of the market research that we've 00:28:36.700 --> 00:28:40.135 seen talks about, so this is definitely a way 00:28:40.135 --> 00:28:43.800 or something to focus on. How can organizations, 00:28:43.800 --> 00:28:50.400 leadership, so on, handle not only changing workload, but high workload as well. This is 00:28:50.400 --> 00:28:53.682 very tricky. So we also have low human resources. So 00:28:53.682 --> 00:28:56.900 people are low, budgets are low, so what can we do? 00:28:56.900 --> 00:29:03.100 LLMs seem to be a potential over here of automation. Like one of the projects we're 00:29:03.100 --> 00:29:06.600 working on is on cyber threat intelligence, and 00:29:06.600 --> 00:29:10.100 many times it's a manual effort to go through a 00:29:10.100 --> 00:29:12.626 lot of these threat reports and then convert them 00:29:12.626 --> 00:29:15.100 into some kind of structured information. So can 00:29:15.100 --> 00:29:19.244 we use new technologies like LLMs to be able to 00:29:19.244 --> 00:29:23.300 do that for us? So it makes their life easier, 00:29:23.300 --> 00:29:26.913 it reduces the boring, mundane, frustrating work, 00:29:26.913 --> 00:29:30.600 it speeds things up, it reduces the workload also, 00:29:30.600 --> 00:29:33.453 because now you can actually process so many 00:29:33.453 --> 00:29:36.500 more threat reports, and people might feel more 00:29:36.500 --> 00:29:39.150 motivated and interested in doing things like 00:29:39.150 --> 00:29:41.800 this. So I think that's something one can do. 00:29:41.800 --> 00:29:44.276 I mentioned psychological safety. I think that's 00:29:44.276 --> 00:29:46.700 also really important because we want to create 00:29:46.700 --> 00:29:49.397 an environment in which people feel safe and 00:29:49.397 --> 00:29:52.400 are able to express their current state of being. 00:29:52.400 --> 00:29:57.800 And so it might be difficult if people are not even aware of this concept or not even 00:29:57.800 --> 00:30:04.400 open to this concept, but a lot of research shows that psychological safety is a really 00:30:04.400 --> 00:30:06.775 good trigger for performance and well-being and 00:30:06.775 --> 00:30:09.100 reducing stress and burnout. So I think that's 00:30:09.100 --> 00:30:12.871 another really important aspect to follow. Apart 00:30:12.871 --> 00:30:16.800 from that, I think resilience is really important. 00:30:16.800 --> 00:30:19.510 There's been a lot of research on resilience. 00:30:19.510 --> 00:30:22.400 There's a book that I read recently, it's called 00:30:22.400 --> 00:30:25.262 Tomorrow Mind. It's by Martin Seligman and 00:30:25.262 --> 00:30:28.600 Gabrielle, I forgot her last name. I think that's 00:30:28.600 --> 00:30:31.679 really important because they talk about this 00:30:31.679 --> 00:30:35.100 concept of VUCA, which is volatility, uncertainty, 00:30:35.100 --> 00:30:38.650 complexity, and ambiguity. And these are some of 00:30:38.650 --> 00:30:42.200 the reasons why it's also so stressful. And this 00:30:42.200 --> 00:30:44.566 applies to knowledge work in general, but it 00:30:44.566 --> 00:30:47.200 applies to cybersecurity as well. And so what can 00:30:47.200 --> 00:30:54.000 we do to improve resilience? Because if we encounter a stressful situation, it's also 00:30:54.000 --> 00:30:56.810 our mindset to that stressful situation. Are we 00:30:56.810 --> 00:30:59.800 going to think of this as something very stressful 00:30:59.800 --> 00:31:02.901 and then get stressed out, feel anxious and not 00:31:02.901 --> 00:31:06.200 be able to accept the challenge? Or do we think of 00:31:06.200 --> 00:31:08.650 the particular situation at hand as something 00:31:08.650 --> 00:31:11.100 that's going to make us feel excited or we're 00:31:11.100 --> 00:31:13.474 curious about and we're going to be able to 00:31:13.474 --> 00:31:16.400 solve? This is actually a really important concept to 00:31:16.400 --> 00:31:20.657 keep in mind when we come up with a stressor, for 00:31:20.657 --> 00:31:25.000 example. That's known as the appraisal process. So 00:31:25.000 --> 00:31:29.050 do we appraise something as a stressor or as a 00:31:29.050 --> 00:31:33.100 challenge or a hindrance? Resilience training, 00:31:33.100 --> 00:31:35.929 coming back to resilience training, I think this 00:31:35.929 --> 00:31:38.700 is super huge. If we can have some training for 00:31:39.400 --> 00:31:45.700 leaders and individuals to become more resilient, that's super important. 00:31:45.700 --> 00:31:48.247 There's also anti-fragility and so on. 00:31:48.247 --> 00:31:51.800 Whatever challenges that we encounter, if we can make 00:31:51.800 --> 00:31:55.800 ourselves stronger, that make us stronger, that's actually really good. 00:31:55.800 --> 00:31:58.450 Thank you very much. Now, just as you explained that, 00:31:58.450 --> 00:32:01.200 I was wondering if this VUCA aspect that you mentioned, 00:32:01.200 --> 00:32:06.700 when you try to make or to formulate some goals that are easier to follow, to avoid 00:32:06.700 --> 00:32:13.400 parts of that, you usually use something like KPIs, KRIs. Are they doing good or are they 00:32:13.400 --> 00:32:19.400 more dangerous when it comes to having things immediately measurable? Does that help or is 00:32:19.400 --> 00:32:23.000 this an obstacle? Yeah, so being able to measure 00:32:23.000 --> 00:32:26.900 something gives us some insight on what's happening. 00:32:26.900 --> 00:32:29.178 Of course, what we measure is also really 00:32:29.178 --> 00:32:31.900 important. So if we are measuring the wrong thing 00:32:31.900 --> 00:32:37.900 or wrong metric, that's going to give us false information that could maybe make us more 00:32:37.900 --> 00:32:40.900 stressful. I think I want to cast light on the 00:32:40.900 --> 00:32:43.900 work that we've done again because I think the 00:32:43.900 --> 00:32:51.000 surveys are a way to measure what the current state of mental health is. So if we can plug 00:32:51.000 --> 00:32:58.900 these metrics into a dashboard that also has the KPIs of the security team, for example, 00:32:58.900 --> 00:33:01.953 we can then start to correlate what the metrics 00:33:01.953 --> 00:33:05.200 are. And this gives us a sense of what the current 00:33:05.200 --> 00:33:12.000 state is and where we want to go and how these two play out with each other. So if people 00:33:12.000 --> 00:33:14.804 are experiencing their scores on burnout are 00:33:14.804 --> 00:33:17.800 actually increasing, is that actually impacting 00:33:17.800 --> 00:33:20.400 your, let's say, mean time to detection or the 00:33:20.400 --> 00:33:23.000 number of tickets you're processing and so on? 00:33:23.000 --> 00:33:25.446 Different teams have different metrics. So 00:33:25.446 --> 00:33:28.300 that's actually also, I think, a really important 00:33:28.300 --> 00:33:30.558 aspect to consider. I think quantifying 00:33:30.558 --> 00:33:33.800 something, putting a number, just makes it a little more 00:33:33.800 --> 00:33:36.769 tangible. But of course, there is the other side 00:33:36.769 --> 00:33:39.800 to it that then we start to sort of play the game 00:33:39.800 --> 00:33:43.678 of increasing numbers rather than, let's say, 00:33:43.678 --> 00:33:47.900 considering our team, our colleagues and actually 00:33:47.900 --> 00:33:54.100 choosing the right work. Because then we might fall into the risk of choosing tasks that 00:33:54.100 --> 00:33:56.534 actually increase metrics versus actually 00:33:56.534 --> 00:33:59.800 choosing the tough ones that might not actually bump up 00:33:59.800 --> 00:34:02.436 metrics but are actually really critical and, 00:34:02.436 --> 00:34:05.600 let's say, difficult and need to be done but might not 00:34:05.600 --> 00:34:07.832 actually drive up metrics. So there is a 00:34:07.832 --> 00:34:10.900 double-edged, it is sort of double-edged over there and 00:34:10.900 --> 00:34:13.468 needs to be taken. There needs to be a balance. 00:34:13.468 --> 00:34:16.200 So whoever is monitoring that and making decisions 00:34:16.200 --> 00:34:22.000 based on that should also be aware of these aspects of incentivizing metrics, if that's a 00:34:22.000 --> 00:34:27.300 good thing or if people are actually working towards that or not. Thank you. Really 00:34:27.300 --> 00:34:29.750 interesting. First of all, I want to encourage our 00:34:29.750 --> 00:34:32.200 audience to participate in the survey. The QR code 00:34:32.200 --> 00:34:34.825 should be somewhere around here and really 00:34:34.825 --> 00:34:38.200 support Cache in improving the databases to work upon. 00:34:38.200 --> 00:34:40.302 That would be a good starting point. Second 00:34:40.302 --> 00:34:42.600 is the question to the audience. And this is an 00:34:42.600 --> 00:34:44.756 unusual episode. This is an unusual topic for 00:34:44.756 --> 00:34:47.200 me. I'm a layman here and you can hear that from my 00:34:47.200 --> 00:34:49.873 questions. Is this interesting to you? Please let 00:34:49.873 --> 00:34:52.600 us know in the comments to this episode on YouTube 00:34:52.600 --> 00:34:55.228 or wherever you are. Please do leave a comment. 00:34:55.228 --> 00:34:57.800 I'm really interested in your feedback. If you 00:34:57.800 --> 00:35:00.600 also want to hear these a bit outside topics of 00:35:00.600 --> 00:35:03.400 what we usually do and to have such interesting 00:35:03.400 --> 00:35:05.974 guests like Cache joining us again, this would be 00:35:05.974 --> 00:35:08.600 really helpful for us. Thank you for that as well. 00:35:08.600 --> 00:35:13.700 And as I said, I'm the layman. Before we close down Cache, are there any questions that I 00:35:13.700 --> 00:35:16.620 did not ask that you would like to have mentioned 00:35:16.620 --> 00:35:19.600 here? Anything you want to close down this episode 00:35:19.600 --> 00:35:22.380 that you want to be considered by the audience? 00:35:22.380 --> 00:35:25.100 Thank you. I really like that question. What's 00:35:25.100 --> 00:35:28.620 the question I didn't ask? I asked that too. 00:35:28.620 --> 00:35:32.300 Let me see. I think we touched upon the survey 00:35:32.300 --> 00:35:39.200 that we did, what we're looking to do with our future work, what we can currently do, 00:35:39.200 --> 00:35:45.500 what people can also do on their own, what organizations can do. We also touched upon 00:35:45.500 --> 00:35:49.700 asking people to participate. So I think that's also really helpful. Thank you again. 00:35:50.900 --> 00:35:52.589 Dear listeners, if you've heard that and 00:35:52.589 --> 00:35:54.700 you've actually taken action on that, we're really 00:35:54.700 --> 00:36:00.200 grateful for that. Anything else that you didn't ask that I'd like to have? I think, 00:36:00.900 --> 00:36:04.800 apart from that, it would be nice if you've been 00:36:04.800 --> 00:36:08.700 listening and you're interested in participating 00:36:08.700 --> 00:36:11.214 in our research, not just the survey, but if 00:36:11.214 --> 00:36:13.900 you think your organization would be interested 00:36:13.900 --> 00:36:17.000 in sort of taking these concepts further, like 00:36:17.000 --> 00:36:20.100 trying out the survey and putting it together, 00:36:20.100 --> 00:36:25.400 putting it alongside your dashboard and correlating the metrics, that would be super 00:36:25.400 --> 00:36:30.800 useful because what we've noticed from the research and our own experience is being able 00:36:30.800 --> 00:36:34.336 to get into a SOC and to be able to try this out. 00:36:34.336 --> 00:36:37.800 And if you are interested in sort of taking this 00:36:37.800 --> 00:36:41.431 study further and sort of want to try a new 00:36:41.431 --> 00:36:45.400 approach to improving the effectiveness of your 00:36:45.400 --> 00:36:48.164 SOC, please do get in touch with me. I'd be 00:36:48.164 --> 00:36:51.700 really grateful to speak to you about it and to be able 00:36:51.800 --> 00:36:55.163 to take this research and this concept further 00:36:55.163 --> 00:36:58.600 and actually make an impact in a real SOC or in 00:36:58.600 --> 00:37:03.800 real SOCs. So, yeah, I think that's the one thing I would like to add. Thank you. 00:37:03.800 --> 00:37:06.024 And that would be the latest point when we have 00:37:06.024 --> 00:37:08.200 results from that, that we can talk again. So, 00:37:08.200 --> 00:37:13.000 I think that would be something where that correlates on the one hand, improving health 00:37:13.000 --> 00:37:17.800 and well-being and the flow state, and on the other hand, really getting to better results 00:37:17.800 --> 00:37:19.927 in the SOC. That would be really interesting 00:37:19.927 --> 00:37:22.200 to see. But I think we will talk about it again 00:37:22.200 --> 00:37:26.600 soon. So, thank you very much, Cash, for being my guest today, for sharing your knowledge, 00:37:26.600 --> 00:37:29.471 for your expertise in this specific area. This is 00:37:29.471 --> 00:37:32.400 really helpful and interesting for me as well. So, 00:37:32.400 --> 00:37:34.849 I love to do these episodes. I hope the audience 00:37:34.849 --> 00:37:37.400 as well. Looking forward to having you soon again. 00:37:37.400 --> 00:37:41.000 And again, thank you for joining me today. Thanks, Cash. 00:37:41.000 --> 00:37:41.800 Thank you, Matthias. 00:37:41.800 --> 00:37:42.600 Thank you. Bye-bye. 00:37:42.600 --> 00:37:54.400 Bye.